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Should I stay or should I go now - U.K. in/out of the EU (contd.)

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3 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

 I get what you are trying to say  , but  i think that's a kind of frivolous argument , how big did you want the ballot paper to be  ?

Probably the most generous phraseology I've read all week.

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18 minutes ago, bickster said:

80% of Tory voters are nearly dead, it'll go away, slowly but it'll go

Not if you reduce social care visit's it won't,  they will all die alone in massive houses in the front room I guess watching re-runs of something under a hammer,  they won't be found for week's or month's.(joke)

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2 minutes ago, desensitized43 said:

This is the problem with the referendum in general.

You constantly hear noises from hardcore Brexit nutters saying "I didn't vote for a deal, a deal wasn't on the ballot etc"...

Leave mean't 17.4m different things. It was deliberately made ambiguous by Farage and Johnson et al by saying we could "be like Norway" to make their base as wide as possible

If they've now decided that leaving means we can't be like Norway and Switzerland then we need to do this over again.

Parliament agreed the question , not Farage or Johnson  ,

a lot of claims were made , make the case that they lied more or were chief instigators I suppose but  I think it would be unfair to single out Farage and Johnson (or essentially only leavers as you seem to imply)

I think you've inadvertently called Stefan a nutjob as well  , albeit obvious from a remain perspective not  leaver :P  ...

 

the question / vote was leave or remain , it then should have come down to parliament to work out the terms of that leave outcome ... something they haven't yet been able to agree on  ... as it stands only parliament can decide if we leave like Norway or Switzerland, but they haven't agreed on that either

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37 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

Schrodinger's Immigrant strikes again!

tbf i think he was playing on Bicks stereotype joke the post before

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1 minute ago, tonyh29 said:

the question / vote was leave or remain , it then should have come down to parliament to work out the terms of that leave outcome ... something they haven't yet been able to agree on  ... as it stands only parliament can decide if we leave like Norway or Switzerland, but they haven't agreed on that either

There's a basic misconception here I feel. Norway and Switzerland are later decisions, we haven't got past the WA stage yet, the future trading relationship comes after. the Tories and the Leave campaigns in general have deliberately obscured this. The remain side have also been particularly inept at pointing this iut

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5 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

tbf i think he was playing on Bicks stereotype joke the post before

tbf I think Stefan was commenting on the second line and being in agreement :mrgreen:

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5 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

Parliament agreed the question , not Farage or Johnson  ,

a lot of claims were made , make the case that they lied more or were chief instigators I suppose but  I think it would be unfair to single out Farage and Johnson (or essentially only leavers as you seem to imply)

I think you've inadvertently called Stefan a nutjob as well  , albeit obvious from a remain perspective not  leaver :P  ...

 

the question / vote was leave or remain , it then should have come down to parliament to work out the terms of that leave outcome ... something they haven't yet been able to agree on  ... as it stands only parliament can decide if we leave like Norway or Switzerland, but they haven't agreed on that either

True enough but it was Farage and Johnson who decided that the version of "Leave" that they would attempt to sell to the public at the time of the referendum was actually Norway or Switzerland.

After the referendum all we hear is "we can trade on WTO". So after selling us Norway and Switzerland (because those countries don't sound so bad, right?) we actually get Mauritania (who?), the only country trading solely on WTO terms.

 

You can make the argument "that the remain side lied too" but they were putting across projections of how bad it could be. You can make an argument they exaggerated those or they gave you half the picture. Hell, I even agree that they did. They didn't outright lie.

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1 minute ago, desensitized43 said:

True enough but it was Farage and Johnson who decided that the version of "Leave" that they would attempt to sell to the public at the time of the referendum was actually Norway or Switzerland.

After the referendum all we hear is "we can trade on WTO". So after selling us Norway and Switzerland (because those countries don't sound so bad, right?) we actually get Mauritania (who?), the only country trading solely on WTO terms.

 

You can make the argument "that the remain side lied too" but they were putting across projections of how bad it could be. You can make an argument they exaggerated those or they gave you half the picture. Hell, I even agree that they did. They didn't outright lie.

Unless I'm misunderstanding the Governemnt website We wouldn't be trading soley on WTO terms ,we've signed continuity agreements with numerous counties / blocks already and mutual recognition agreements with the USA , Australia , New Zealand

if we leave with a deal I'm fairly sure i read that Japan would recognise the UK as part of the EPA  but currently no new deal has been agreed

 

From:Department for International Trade

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11 minutes ago, bickster said:

Is this lying, bullshit or just plain thick?

 

What do you mean, "or"?

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2 minutes ago, peterms said:

What do you mean, "or"?

that's a vote for all three then

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Shows the masterful moving of goalposts in the last 3 years that ending freedom of movement is a given in the leave vote. Prominent leavers argued FOR a Norway or Switzerland option. 

And apparently arguing otherwise is frivolous or worse. 

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35 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

.

I'd take Government websites with a huge pinch of salt.

The one in my area of work is filled with disinformation and dubious opinions stated as precedents.

Be interesting for someone who knows more than myself to comment on the likelihood of these deals happening (and expected timelines) and why it will be the case.

Edited by Sam-AVFC

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2 hours ago, Sam-AVFC said:

...and all remainers are jobless, student, dirty hippy, snowflake, leftie types etc.

Not me.  I'm a textbook champagne socialist  🍾

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1 hour ago, tonyh29 said:

 I get what you are trying to say  , but  i think that's a kind of frivolous argument , how big did you want the ballot paper to be  ?

I didn't want a **** ing ballot paper in the first place. 

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2 hours ago, tonyh29 said:

well technically it voted to leave and freedom of movement is one of the 4 freedom principals of the EU , so you could make a stab at saying yes they did

 

I'd say freedom of movement was quite a key point to a lot of voters ,  immigration is usually cited as  key reason why people voted leave isn't it ?

Even though a hell of a lot of people who were or their family were once immigrants themselves voted leave. 

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2 hours ago, StefanAVFC said:

My best mate's dad voted Brexit because as a plumber, he goes into council flats with 8/9 people in each one of Pakistani/Indian origin and he doesn't think it's right.

Pakistani 'origin'? British born, or actual immigrants? Because, even assuming they are actual immigrants, leaving the EU won't affect immigration from south Asia - it may even need to increase, to replace the lost European workers. 

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8 minutes ago, NurembergVillan said:

Not me.  I'm a textbook champagne socialist  🍾

Same.

I've never understood the argument that you can't want better for everyone regardless if certain things effect you or not. I find it completely incomprehensible the lack of empathy a lot of people have.

On topic - my empathy isn't restricted to UK borders and even if we did get less out of the EU than we put in (which I don't believe we do) I have no issue with supporting other EU nations.

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1 minute ago, Sam-AVFC said:

Same.

I've never understood the argument that you can't want better for everyone regardless if certain things effect you or not. I find it completely incomprehensible the lack of empathy a lot of people have.

On topic - my empathy isn't restricted to UK borders and even if we did get less out of the EU than we put in (which I don't believe we do) I have no issue with supporting other EU nations.

This. Low paid immigrants aren't the problem. Stinking rich British tax dodgers are. (I lack empathy for them, sorry). 

Edited by mjmooney
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