The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[colhint]

9 minutes ago, bickster said:

These people weren't emigrating, they were literally planning to stay at home

But you were suggesting people needed a Law degree and Specialist training to be able to even find out what was required to stay in a country, By pointing   out that millions of people around the world do this  every year I merely highlighted  the flaw in your argument.

[Vive_La_Villa]

4 minutes ago, snowychap said:

The documents in the Windrush case were landing cards which were held by the UK government and not the individuals/families themselves. The Border Agency made the decision in 2009 to have them destroyed and that was carried out in Oct 2010.

Really? Shocking

[tonyh29]

36 minutes ago, NurembergVillan said:

And yes, I do believe in the law.  Which is more than can be send for many of those who are currently in place to govern us.

What laws have they broken ? 

[snowychap]

Just now, colhint said:

But you were suggesting people needed a Law degree and Specialist training to be able to even find out what was required to stay in a country,

No, he wasn't.

I responded to your earlier post by asking if you were up on immigration law at the age of two - thus obviously talking about someone who may have moved, say, to this country at the age of, erm, two.

You said ' nah but If I'd lived here for more than 20 years after I'd know enough to find out what's required'.

So, we're obviously talking about a specific type of case not just people generally immigrating and emigrating in a standard way for which there are largely clear processes (see comment in previous post, however, for why this is not always the case, i.e. EU citizens' rights and the rights of UK citizens elsewhere in the EU).

In those cases, where you're going back a couple of decades or, perhaps, even longer then it's quite possible it's not going to be very easy to navigate immigration law and you're unlikely to be able to confidently rock through it without some expertise in the matter.

For an example, here's a section from Fact Check page on the Windrush landing cards:

Quote

That’s the situation facing a number of Windrush migrants – many of whom came over on their parents’ passports or who have lost their official documents.

Damian Krushner again: “The historic relevance is that the migrant would have picked up more visa rights on entry depending on whether they arrived before the 1962, 1968 or 1971 Acts came into force.

“The question of access to public funds, public services and the issuing biometric visas as a gateway to these might well depend partly on the date of arrival and the landing card evidence.”

...

Damian Krushner points out: “It was not considered much of an issue before the hostile environment but there were isolated cases even before that.

He added: “Another unmentioned aggravator was a 2012 change, whereby those with long UK residence but no proven visa [used to be able to] gain settlement straight away. Now they must complete 10 years and four visas to gain settlement (with no interim access to public funds).”

So that's a number of dates where different rules would and do apply to different cases. You're not going to get that information from the CAB.

[snowychap]

7 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Really? Shocking

To be fair, as the link in my post above says, there may have been a case in 2009 when the UKBA made the decision. Their claim that they were of 'limited value' is argued against by the lawyers quoted but it would appear that when May introduced the hostile environment this is when the data on those cards became relevant and important.

It does support your point about trying to hang on to all and any documentation for as long as possible but who would have kept all that stuff from 50 years ago?

Those having applied on the EU scheme (and those to apply) should most definitely keep their responses, though. There will not be a physical document (or a biometric card) indicating status - it is only being kept electronically*.

 

*Probably on an Access 97 db on a computer running Windows ME in a dusty Whitehall office somewhere (joke).

[snowychap]

17 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

What laws have they broken ? 

Edited September 1, 2019 by snowychap

[bickster]

1 hour ago, colhint said:

But you were suggesting people needed a Law degree and Specialist training to be able to even find out what was required to stay in a country, By pointing   out that millions of people around the world do this  every year I merely highlighted  the flaw in your argument.

I suggested no such thing.

[colhint]

you are correct it was snowychap. Please accept my appolgies.

[colhint]

2 hours ago, StefanAVFC said:

What if your parents were never told their kids would have to do this? Why would you keep evidence you didn't think you'd ever need.

It's the same for EU citizens. They came here with the pretence they would never have to prove themselves.

Isn't this a massive flaw with the EU. They live under the pretense that nothing will ever change. If the EU drop free movement ever everyone is buggered if they have no documents. Forget now imagine in 30 years. say Spain or Italy leaves, any country really. What you are implying is that they don't have to prove themselves now, and anything changes they would be up the creek without a paddle.

[TheAuthority]

Don't worry everyone. The Tories Brexit website has just gone live.

www.gov.co.uk/brexit

You can just plug in your circumstances and everything is easily explained. I tried a few different things just to see!
Here for example is what to do if you want to take your dog or cat with you in your caravan to Brittany for a week.

Quote

Guidance

Pet travel to Europe after Brexit

How to prepare for travel with your pet to any EU country whether the UK leaves the EU with or without a deal.
 

Stay up to date

The UK will leave the EU on 31 October. This page tells you what to do if there’s a no-deal Brexit. It will be updated if anything changes, including if a deal is agreed.

Sign up for email alerts to get the latest information.
To make sure your pet is able to travel from the UK to the EU after Brexit, you should contact your vet at least 4 months before travelling to get the latest advice.

The UK will become a third country when it leaves the EU. Third countries can apply to the European Commission to be listed.

In the EU Pet Travel Scheme, there are 3 categorisations of third country:

• unlisted
• Part 1 listed
• Part 2 listed

Pet travel requirements will change depending on what category the UK becomes on exit day.

The UK is likely to be treated as an unlisted country under the EU Pet Travel Scheme if it leaves without a deal.

Pet travel if the UK is an unlisted country

A current EU pet passport issued in the UK will not be valid for travel to the EU.

You’ll need to take the following steps:

1. You must have your dog, cat or ferret microchipped and vaccinated against rabies before it can travel. Your pet must have a blood sample taken at least 30 days after its last rabies vaccination (whether that’s a booster or initial vaccination). Your vet may recommend a booster rabies vaccination before this test.

2. Your vet must send the blood sample to an EU-approved blood testing laboratory.

3. The results of the blood test must show a rabies antibody level of at least 0.5 IU/ml.

4. You must wait 3 months from the date the successful blood sample was taken before you can travel.

5. The vet must give you a copy of the test results and enter the day the blood sample was taken in an animal health certificate.

You might find that the blood test result is not successful despite your pet being up to date with its rabies vaccinations. If this happens you’ll need a repeat vaccination and another blood test taken at least 30 days after the repeat vaccination.

Find out more about rabies vaccination boosters and blood tests.

Dogs travelling from the UK to EU listed tapeworm-free countries (Finland, Republic of Ireland and Malta) must be treated for tapeworm 24 to 120 hours (1 to 5 days) before arriving in one of those countries.

You will not be able to travel with your pet if you have not completed these steps.

Get a health certificate

You must also take your pet to an official vet no more than 10 days before travel to get an animal health certificate.

You must take proof of:

• your pet’s vaccination history
• your pet’s microchipping date
• a successful rabies antibody blood test result

If you’re travelling with your dog directly to Finland, Republic of Ireland or Malta it must have additional treatment against tapeworm (Echinococcus multilocularis). Your vet must enter full details on the animal health certificate following treatment.

Your pet’s animal health certificate will be valid for:

• 10 days after the date of issue for entry into the EU
• onward travel within the EU for 4 months after the date of issue
• re-entry to the UK for 4 months after the date of issue

On arrival in the EU, pet owners travelling with pets will need to enter through a designated Travellers’ point of entry (TPE).

At the TPE, you may need to present proof of:

• your pet’s microchip
• rabies vaccination
• successful blood test results
• tapeworm treatment (if required)
• your pet’s health certificate

Repeat trips to the EU

Pets do not need a repeat blood test before travelling again if they have:

• had a successful blood test
• an up-to-date subsequent rabies vaccination history

Your pet will need a new health certificate for each trip to the EU.

To get a new health certificate you must take your pet to an official vet no more than 10 days before you travel. Again, you must show proof of your pet’s:

• microchipping date
• rabies vaccination history
• successful rabies antibody blood test result

Additional rules apply if you’re travelling to Malta, Republic of Ireland or Finland.

Return to the UK

Your pet must have one of the following documents when returning to the UK:

• an EU pet passport (issued in the EU or in the UK prior to Brexit)
• the animal health certificate issued in the UK used to travel to the EU (which you can use up to 4 months after it was issued)
• a UK pet health certificate (for travel into the UK only)

Check the routes before you travel. You must travel using approved routes. Your documents and microchip will be checked when entering England, Scotland or Wales (Great Britain). Different rules apply in Northern Ireland.

There will be no change to the current health preparations for pets entering Great Britain from the EU after Brexit.

You do not have to travel on an approved route if you travel to Great Britain from:

• other UK countries
• the Channel Islands
• the Isle of Man
• the Republic of Ireland

Talk to your vet about what preparations you need to make before you travel from these places.

Travel from countries not free from tapeworm (Echinococcus multilocularis)

You need to take your dog to a vet no less than 24 hours and no more than 120 hours (5 days) before entering the UK for an approved tapeworm treatment. This requirement will not change after the UK leaves the EU.

You do not need to treat your dog for tapeworm if you’re coming directly to the UK from Finland, Republic of Ireland or Malta.

UK nationals living in the EU

If you’re living in the EU and plan to travel with your pet using a UK-issued pet passport, you should speak to your vet. They’ll help you understand the effect of Brexit and ensure you’re compliant with EU Pet Travel Regulations.

If you have a pet passport issued by an EU member state, you can use it to bring your pet to the UK.

You can also use it to return to the EU, as long as your pet has had a successful rabies antibody blood test. You must make sure the blood sample is taken at least 30 days after the date of rabies vaccination.

If the blood sample is taken in the UK you must wait 3 months from the date the successful blood sample was taken before you travel back to the EU. You do not have to wait the 3 months before travelling if your pet has a successful blood test before leaving the EU.

If the UK becomes a listed third country

Third countries have to apply to the European Commission to be listed under either Part 1 or Part 2 of EU Pet Travel Regulations.

Part 1 listed countries operate under the same EU Pet Travel Scheme rules as EU member states but with a different type of pet passport. Most countries are Part 2 listed, which means there are different requirements for travelling with your pet.

You’ll need to obtain documents from an official vet that will replace the EU pet passport. The type of document you need depends on whether the UK becomes a Part 1 or Part 2 listed country.

Part 1 listed country status

If the UK becomes a Part 1 listed country, you must have your pet microchipped and vaccinated against rabies at least 21 days before travel. You’ll need to make sure your pet’s rabies vaccinations are kept up to date and make sure your dog has tapeworm treatment if needed.

You must also apply for a new document, the UK pet passport. You can use this for travel to the EU for your pet’s lifetime (or until full) as long as your pet’s rabies vaccinations are kept up to date.

Part 2 listed country status

If the UK becomes a Part 2 listed country, you must have your pet microchipped and vaccinated against rabies at least 21 days before travel. You’ll need to make sure your pet’s rabies vaccinations are kept up to date and make sure your dog has tapeworm treatment if needed.

You must also visit an official vet no more than 10 days before you travel to get an animal health certificate confirming that your pet is microchipped and vaccinated against rabies.

Your pet will need a new animal health certificate for each trip to the EU if the UK becomes a Part 2 listed country. On arrival in the EU, pet owners travelling with pets need to enter through a designated TPE. At the TPE, you may need to present proof of microchip and rabies vaccination and tapeworm treatment if required.

Pet travel during an implementation period

If a deal is agreed and an implementation period is confirmed, you can travel with your pet to the EU under the current pet travel rules using your current EU pet passport.

If you’re travelling with your pet for the first time you’ll have to visit your vet to get a pet passport.

Find an official vet

Speak to your vet to find your nearest official vet. Many veterinary practices will have one in their team.

You can also read guidance on how to find an official vet.

Pet travel from Northern Ireland

For information on the Pet Travel Scheme in Northern Ireland, read pet travel guidance from the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs (DAERA).

You see! It's simple!!!! Bloody re-moaners with their Project Fear.

[ml1dch]

4 hours ago, TheAuthority said:

Don't worry everyone. The Tories Brexit website has just gone live.

www.gov.co.uk/brexit

You can just plug in your circumstances and everything is easily explained. I tried a few different things just to see!
Here for example is what to do if you want to take your dog or cat with you in your caravan to Brittany for a week.

You see! It's simple!!!! Bloody re-moaners with their Project Fear.

I'm just glad we're getting rid of all that admin and red tape.

[peterms]

 

[peterms]

 

[bickster]

8 hours ago, tonyh29 said:

What laws have they broken ? 

The ones they plan to if they don’t get their own way, do keep up, it’s todays Hot Topic

[blandy]

14 hours ago, snowychap said:

Is there any other evidence for this about the tweeter other than the hashtag?

Yes, plenty in his tweets and retweets. This is veering off topic somewhat, though. Have a look for yourself, you can answer your own question.

 

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

5 hours ago, TheAuthority said:

You see! It's simple!!!! Bloody re-moaners with their Project Fear.

Pet Travel:  I know this is a bit niche,

I was thinking about going to Brum via the Ferry at Xmas with my little granddaughter and my Border Collie so the boat seemed perfect,  port not far from me etc.

I think I am going to fly now and leave the dog here with my Daughter but It was going to be a big adventure for us 3.  (I realize this is a small impact but my grandaughter might have thought the boat trip was ace and she has never been on a boat,  I have never been overnight on a boat either and it's just a bit of a shame,  there are probably millions of little things like this happening becasue of the uncertainty)

I would be scared about them taking the dog into quarantine (See you Border Collies coming over here,  taking our sheepdog's job's,  get back in the sea,  why don't you stay in Holland and try and introduce sheepdog sheep herding as a viable option instead of cow farming that is currently prevalent in Holland,  coming over here,  our farms) or something becasue of a form.  I would be ******* then.  If that was the form for a person I think everyone would think twice about going,  too risky + it will change between here and xmas I guess.  I get super stressed about travel and stuff so no boat this year.  From the information it would be easy to go tomorrow I think as the dog is always super up to date on everything but the 3rd Country parts are a bit ***t and if's and but's in regards travel is **** tbf.

 

[snowychap]

16 minutes ago, blandy said:

Yes, plenty in his tweets and retweets. This is veering off topic somewhat, though. Have a look for yourself, you can answer your own question.

 

It's not veering off topic, though, is it? It's at the heart of how debate around the topic (from the fringes to the heart of the matter) is conducted. Because of a bias or a perceived bias, someone's opinion or research (or people's acceptance of it) is pooh-poohed on that regard and that regard alone (at least HV was criticising the points made and his dismissals of some potential conclusions).

Your point was that he was showing an uncommon level of critical thinking whereas everyone else was acceppting the content of the thread because it was 'written by someone with a particular position on Brexit'.

Now that would have to be the case either because it was obvious (e.g. the tweeter was a well known anti-Brexit person - the blog confusion would suggest he isn't/wasn't well known, or that it was clear in the thread which was quoted that he was anti-Brexit - again down to the hashtag only?) or because there was an underlying tone that you astutely saw whilst others consumed the content not understanding this bias.

If the latter then it would suggest a field ripe for exploitation by those wishing to subvert opinion by means of propaganda and misinformation. There ought to be research done in to it.

[cyrusr]

@snowychap here's the NI Court Case

NI High Court Brexit challenge adjourned

Quote

Legal action at the High Court in Belfast aimed at stopping the suspension of Parliament has been adjourned until next week.

At the hearing on Friday, a lawyer acting for Troubles victims' campaigner Raymond McCord argued a no-deal Brexit would "create turmoil" in NI.

Mr McCord is seeking an urgent injunction to force the prime minister to reverse his plans.

His lawyers contend the move is unconstitutional.

On Wednesday, Prime Minister Boris Johnson revealed his plan to suspend Parliament for several weeks ahead of a Queen's Speech on 14 October.

The UK is due to leave the EU on 31 October.

A barrister for the Government pointed out that a similar attempt to secure an injunction was refused in the case in Scotland.

He said he did not see any "Northern Ireland-specific aspects" to the arguments against prorogation.

The Lord Chief Justice of Northern Ireland, Sir Declan Morgan, adjourned proceedings until next week and imposed a deadline for lodging further papers.

Mr McCord is already involved in bringing a judicial review against the Government in relation to a no-deal Brexit being contrary to the Good Friday agreement.

It was due to be heard on 16 September.

Speaking after the hearing, Mr McCord described what the prime minister has done as "undemocratic".

Basically that argument is that no-deal brexit would breach the Good Friday agreement.

[snowychap]

1 minute ago, cyrusr said:

Basically that argument is that no-deal brexit would breach the Good Friday agreement.

On the face of it - and given the article by Paul Craig that I posted - that looks much less likely to succeed (than the general case against the Government going too far with the prorogation) at this point in time, no?

The point being that there is still a political avenue (in a however narrow a window) to prevent a 'no deal' withdrawal. I guess there could be some form of judgment that leaves the door open for the case to be brought again if the government uses further measures to evade that political avenue (such as ignoring laws being passed or witholding assent)?

[tonyh29]

1 hour ago, bickster said:

The ones they plan to if they don’t get their own way, do keep up, it’s todays Hot Topic

You’re going to have to be more specific than that and less patronising 

again what laws have the broken?