Jump to content

The now-enacted will of (some of) the people


blandy

Recommended Posts

3 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

Yes. They beat the Greens too. And the DUP. And UKIP. And the Lib Dems.

There must be a point you're making here, but Lord knows what it is.

Maybe their strategists were better than Labour.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, LondonLax said:

If they thought that argument might fly in the court of ‘public opinion’ it would seem they are mistaken. 

I reckon that very much depends on which courtroom you have chosen to attend. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, colhint said:

Maybe their strategists were better than Labour.

Maybe. I'd probably say that somebody who has gained 30 seats has played that particular game better than someone who lost 13 seats.

Weirdly though, you appear to have mistaken me for somebody who gives the tiniest toss about the Labour Party.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, cyrusr said:

Whilst the brexit issue is vastly important, but on whichever side of that fence you sit, what Boris is doing is a significant constitutional crisis.

Boris is a person who, at best, was voted for by 92,153 people, is leading this country in a decision that the vast majority of his peers (MPs) don’t agree with. That is 0.14% of the population of the UK. Whilst the executive leads the country, the sovereignty has been for 100s of years within parliament and again recently confirmed through this process. If he is allowed to take to remove parliament from the decision making process, what is to stop him or another PM from doing the same for another decision? Next time there will be a different justification to remove parliament and if they cannot stop it now, they won’t be able to stop it in the future.

It is one step towards an autocracy and that I hope we can all agree on, is never, ever in the best interest of anyone except for those in charge.

The thing is though, proroging parliament kills all active bills dead, it can’t be used to get a bill through parliament against the wishes of parliament. 

MPs, in their infinite wisdom, voted for article 50 without a plan (including the opposition party whipping in support of it) and the ultimate conclusion of that decision would have been the UK leaving the EU without a deal at the end of March. 

If parliament didn’t like the endgame for enacting article 50 they should not have voted for it. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

57 minutes ago, peterms said:

If you think it's the product of a thoughtful and considered strategy, rather than a self-defeating and hubristic display of the arrogance of temporary power, please be so kind as to explain the master plan which remains obscure to the likes of me.

 

50 minutes ago, Chindie said:

Having not thought about it that much I can only think the 'strategy' is either to dare Parliament to go for VONC with the end game of the election every single person in the country knows is coming, to play chicken with the aim of forcing a no deal or Johnson deal situation, or to force a no deal to get over the hurdle and hope with that gone the agenda will change (which it won't, it'll just change flavour).

In any case, the decision is a disgrace.

 

47 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

No you’re right , I’m sure having coveted being PM since his school days he woke up this morning and thought  **** it I think I’d rather be presenting Have I got news for you let’s see how I get out of this PM gig

 

I think there is definitely something behind it. Boris knows what he is doing as @tonyh29 states, he has gone too far to through it away. I think that @Chindie has got the crux of it. Either parliament will be scared into agreeing a “Boris Deal” (Mays deal with an extra bow on it) and he becomes the savour, or he’s forced to stop, making parliament/EU/anyone but Boris the fall guy, giving him (and Tories) a large chunk of brexit supporting people “because they tried”. That could stick the nail into Farage and bring those supporters to the Tories. He has to act this way as the tough persona in order to convince everyone that he is serious, and to be fair to him, it’s working. 

Either that, or he is truly determined to get the country f***ed and has already got his money elsewhere. 

Make no mistake, Boris is a very, very dangerous man. Sadly, whilst it maybe playing into his hand, not reacting is the worst thing that can be done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, LondonLax said:

Their response is that they didn’t prorogue parliament until the 1st of November, instead they did if for a few extra days than would have happened anyway due to party conferences and there is still time left for parliament to have its say.

If they thought that argument might fly in the court of ‘public opinion’ it would seem they are mistaken. 

I see your point, but the bolded is almost certainly not true - it seems that opposition parties agreed provisionally yesterday to vote to sit during the conference recess, and may well have won that vote with the support of 'rebel' Tories. 

I'm interested in your line here about public opinion - I haven't really heard much 'public opinion' except this thread and angry old people giving vox pops to journalists in various covered markets and tearooms. What have you seen or heard?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

Maybe. I'd probably say that somebody who has gained 30 seats has played that particular game better than someone who lost 13 seats.

Weirdly though, you appear to have mistaken me for somebody who gives the tiniest toss about the Labour Party.

Isn't that a bit like saying we only lost 3-1 when everyone thought we would lose 4-1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

I reckon that very much depends on which courtroom you have chosen to attend. 

Of course, but from what I’ve seen even most Brexiters are seeing it as a cheeky but ‘justified’ move.

There are not that many toeing the party line, parroting Reese-Mogg, saying that this is all normal. 

Edited by LondonLax
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, LondonLax said:

The thing is though, proroging parliament kills all active bills dead, it can’t be used to get a bill through parliament against the wishes of parliament. 

MPs, in their infinite wisdom, voted for article 50 without a plan (including the opposition party whipping in support of it) and the ultimate conclusion of that decision would have been the UK leaving the EU without a deal at the end of March. 

If parliament didn’t like the endgame for enacting article 50 they should not have voted for it. 

Possibly, but what should be kept on being brought up is that

1) no one really campaigned for “no deal”.

2) no one realistically thought it would get to that anyway as it’s in everyone’s interest to sort out a deal.

So yes parliament hasn’t helped per say, I think there other flaws inherent to the process and parliament.

For starters, Wellingborough has too many MPs, I mean, there are a A LOT OF Representatives for Wellingborough in parliament that’s for sure...

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, colhint said:

Isn't that a bit like saying we only lost 3-1 when everyone thought we would lose 4-1

Who is "we"? Again, you seem to be mistaking me for someone supporting the dick in the red tie over the dick in the blue tie.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, cyrusr said:

Possibly, but what should be kept on being brought up is that

1) no one really campaigned for “no deal”.

2) no one realistically thought it would get to that anyway as it’s in everyone’s interest to sort out a deal.

So yes parliament hasn’t helped per say, I think there other flaws inherent to the process and parliament.

For starters, Wellingborough has too many MPs, I mean, there are a A LOT OF Representatives for Wellingborough in parliament that’s for sure...

Yes, Brexit has certainly exposed the UK parliament for all its flaws. It’s been especially eye opening for foreigners like myself who had not understood the UK system was this disfunctional and held together by convention. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, cyrusr said:

 

 

I think there is definitely something behind it. Boris knows what he is doing as @tonyh29 states, he has gone too far to through it away. I think that @Chindie has got the crux of it. Either parliament will be scared into agreeing a “Boris Deal” (Mays deal with an extra bow on it) and he becomes the savour, or he’s forced to stop, making parliament/EU/anyone but Boris the fall guy, giving him (and Tories) a large chunk of brexit supporting people “because they tried”. That could stick the nail into Farage and bring those supporters to the Tories. He has to act this way as the tough persona in order to convince everyone that he is serious, and to be fair to him, it’s working. 

Either that, or he is truly determined to get the country f***ed and has already got his money elsewhere. 

Make no mistake, Boris is a very, very dangerous man. Sadly, whilst it maybe playing into his hand, not reacting is the worst thing that can be done.

Boris Johnson is not in charge.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

Yes, Brexit has certainly exposed the UK parliament for all its flaws. It’s been especially eye opening for foreigners like myself who had not understood the UK system was this disfunctional and held together by convention. 

It is inherently flawed, but so many political bodies are. Democracy is only as good as those who vote for it and those who represent it. Sadly, they only want to represent themselves and we seem to be more that happy to vote for whatever cheap slogan solves all their problems. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, cyrusr said:

Possibly, but he will be the one of the main beneficiaries of “the plan” at the very least.

He'll benefit whatever happens.

This whole shebang is down to Cummings and his entourage. Johnson is incidental.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He may be on his way to uniting the country around opposition to him. If Corbyn ever pulled this kind of stunt to remain in the EU I like to think I would join the pro Brexit protests in objection.

I hope the PM changes his mind and direction. 
 

Edited by ciggiesnbeer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

I see your point, but the bolded is almost certainly not true - it seems that opposition parties agreed provisionally yesterday to vote to sit during the conference recess, and may well have won that vote with the support of 'rebel' Tories. 

I'm interested in your line here about public opinion - I haven't really heard much 'public opinion' except this thread and angry old people giving vox pops to journalists in various covered markets and tearooms. What have you seen or heard?

For another thread but 5Live thought it would be a great idea to go to Brexit as hell Torquay yesterday and didn’t interview a person under 60 that I could discern.

They did find some against the proroguing but in a very polite way.

The YouGov snap poll was interesting as only 52% of Tories were in favour and there was a minority but significant number of leavers against it too. Across the Gen Pop is was something like 47% against with only 26% in favour (tons of d/ks)

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I thought this article was worth reading. Apologies for the editing! From an Australian paper: https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/brexit-we-re-now-seeing-the-final-contradictions-play-out-20190829-p52lxu.html

Quote

On Brexit, we're seeing the final contradictions play out

August 29, 2019 — 11.19am
British Prime Minister Boris Johnson has hereby suspended Parliament in the name of the people!

Think about that for a moment. In a more familiar world, parliament stands in precisely forthe people. In institutional terms it is the people. And yet here it is cast in the role of some bureaucratic institution getting in the way of the expressed popular will, in this case Brexit. So it will be suspended in a matter of weeks, giving it very little time to vote on some new Brexit deal.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, bickster said:

For another thread but 5Live thought it would be a great idea to go to Brexit as hell Torquay yesterday and didn’t interview a person under 60 that I could discern.

They did find some against the proroguing but in a very polite way.

The YouGov snap poll was interesting as only 52% of Torres were in favour and there was a minority but significant number of leavers against it too. Across the Gen Pop is was something like 47% against with only 26% in favour (tons of d/ks)

I’m am listening right now, the lack of balance of the “callers” is shocking. 

The position of “the callers” is that everyone voted just to leave so that’s what we should do. That we should stop being so scared of no deal, what will be will be. 

If it wasn’t so integral to me and my life, I would just give up and let them be stupid.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...
Â