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The now-enacted will of (some of) the people


blandy

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50 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

The evidence I got is first hand experience of doing this application online and 3 close people who have done likewise. It takes 5 minutes. It's free.

You and three other people did it and it took you 5 minutes, you say.

There have been plenty of other first hand experience reports of it taking people much longer than 5 minutes, of it not working, of having to visit one of the centres in order to have their biometric ID scanned because they didn't have the appropriate facility on their equipment to do this themselves. There are also other stories of data not being accepted which have also caused problems for people when they have made their applications.

All of that is anecdotal evidence from them just as your evidence is anecdotal.

It wasn't free for you. You paid and you were refunded when the government had to cave in and announce that they were going to make it free.

50 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

We all got ILR. It is not £2389.

You got settled status. That may well be termed ILR settled status but Indefinite Leave to Remain is also an immigration status.

I can assure you that, according to the Home Office's own list of visa fees that the cost for an ILR application (note: this is not the cost for the EU SETTLEMENT SCHEME) is £2389.

Here is a link to the relevant government website about the cost for that application now:

Quote

Home Office immigration and nationality fees: 29 March 2019

...

6. Applications made in the UK

Fees category Current Fee New fee from 29 March 2019 Fee Change
Indefinite leave to remain £2,389 £2,389 £0

And from this website, it has the fee before 6th April 2018 and after 6th April 2018:

Quote

Indefinite Leave to Remain (Settlement)     £1,464 / £2,297            £1,523 / £2,389

The first figure is for an application from outside the UK and the second from inside.

My point here is that, before the EU settlement scheme launched, even if EU citizens exercising their treaty rights were aware of ILR (a claim which you now accept was probably incorrect), it would appear that it would have cost them a considerable amount of money to obtain an immigration status that was unnecessary unless they were looking to become British Citizens (it would appear that this is a pathway to citizenship - I'm not sure whether there are/were others specifically for EU citizens and I allow for the possibility of being corrected on the pathway as I'm just going with things that I have read others say when talking about ILR).

50 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

I can assure you the application couldn't be simpler and I'm fairly confident an 8 year old could do it. Download the app yourself and have a look

Perhaps an 8 year old could do it. Perhaps a 68 year old might have difficulty? Perhaps a 38 year could or perhaps a 38 year old couldn't? I'm not sure age is really the iomportant thing unless with it you accept that older peopple may well be more likely to be vulnerable, less tech savvy, less likely to have the equipment to complete the application, &c.

Perhaps someone with some form of difficulties wouldn't be able to complete the application?

I can't download the app as I don't have a smartphone that would be compatible. Many people don't even have smartphones.

Again, you seem to be ignoring the points that have been made and have been widely warned about such as incompatible devices, issues with uploading data, issues with data not being found (if I remember rightly there have been issues with tallying things up with HMRC data - though perhaps I'm getting that mixed up with other issues), even knowledge that this will be a necessity for all EU citizens even those who have already applied for and received Permanent Residence cards &c.

50 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

But let me ask you this.

Would you move to a foreign country (Australia, US, whatever country you want) without spending 5 minutes reading about the immigration laws and finding out how to stay here permanently? I knew about ILR. And I came here as a kid.

If I were an EU citizen I would make sure that I was aware of the rights that I had as an EU citizen when moving to another EU country and how those treaty rights were able to be exercised by me in the country where I intended to move. I'd imagine that I would take more than 5 minutes checking what rights I had in this situation.

I'd imagine that I wouldn't look up every single piece of immigration information available on the country of my destination, no. I;d also imagine that this would take considerably longer than '5 minutes' (seems to be a theme).

If I moved 'as a kid' and yet 'knew about ILR' then I'd have thought that I'd also know that applications for such immigration statuses as Leave to Remain, Indefinite Leave to Remain, &c. incur fees.

Edited by snowychap
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11 minutes ago, snowychap said:

You and three other people did it and it took you 5 minutes, you say.

There have been plenty of other first hand experience reports of it taking people much longer than 5 minutes, of it not working, of having to visit one of the centres in order to have their biometric ID scanned because they didn't have the appropriate facility on their equipment to do this themselves. There are also other stories of data not being accepted which have also caused problems for people when they have made their applications.

All of that is anecdotal evidence from them just as your evidence is anecdotal.

It wasn't free for you. You paid and you were refunded when the government had to cave in and announce that they were going to make it free.

You got settled status. That may well be termed ILR settled status but Indefinite Leave to Remain is also an immigration status.

I can assure you that, according to the Home Office's own list of visa fees that the cost for an ILR application (note: this is not the cost for the EU SETTLEMENT SCHEME) is £2389.

Here is a link to the relevant government website about the cost for that application now:

And from this website, it has the fee before 6th April 2018 and after 6th April 2018:

The first figure is for an application from outside the UK and the second from inside.

My point here is that, before the EU settlement scheme launched, even if EU citizens exercising their treaty rights were aware of ILR (a claim which you now accept was probably incorrect), it would appear that it would have cost them a considerable amount of money to obtain an immigration status that was unnecessary unless they were looking to become British Citizens (it would appear that this is a pathway to citizenship - I'm not sure whether there are/were others specifically for EU citizens and I allow for the possibility of being corrected on the pathway as I'm just going with things that I have read others say when talking about ILR).

Perhaps an 8 year old could do it. Perhaps a 68 year old might have difficulty? Perhaps a 38 year could or perhaps a 38 year old couldn't? I'm not sure age is really the iomportant thing unless with it you accept that older peopple may well be more likely to be vulnerable, less tech savvy, less likely to have the equipment to complete the application, &c.

Perhaps someone with some form of difficulties wouldn't be able to complete the application?

I can't download the app as I don't have a smartphone that would be compatible. Many people don't even have smartphones.

Again, you seem to be ignoring the points that have been made and have been widely warned about such as incompatible devices, issues with uploading data, issues with data not being found (if I remember rightly there have been issues with tallying things up with HMRC data - though perhaps I'm getting that mixed up with other issues), even knowledge that this will be a necessity for all EU citizens even those who have already applied for and received Permanent Residence cards &c.

If I were an EU citizen I would make sure that I was aware of the rights that I had as an EU citizen when moving to another EU country and how those treaty rights were able to be exercised by me in the country where I intended to move. I'd imagine that I would take more than 5 minutes checking what rights I had in this situation.

I'd imagine that I wouldn't look up every single piece of immigration information available on the country of my destination, no. I;d also imagine that this would take considerably longer than '5 minutes' (seems to be a theme).

If I moved 'as a kid' and yet 'knew about ILR' then I'd have thought that I'd also know that applications for such immigration statuses as Leave to Remain, Indefinite Leave to Remain, &c. incur fees.

Sure, a 65 year old might struggle. A 30 year old might struggle. What do you propose? What is an easier than the way it's done now? 

Here is a direct quote from my decision on the application:

Quote

I am pleased to inform you that your application under the EU Settlement Scheme has
been successful and that you have been granted Indefinite Leave to Remain (ILR) in
the United Kingdom, under Appendix EU to the Immigration Rules. This is also referred
to as settled status. Your status takes effect from the date of this letter, which can be
found above.

This was free and took 5 minutes. How else can I prove this? As far as I'm aware, the £2k+ is for when you are outside of the EU which is not what we are discussing here.

We are arguing something very silly here and getting way to deep into the rabbit hole so I would like to get back to the bottom of my argument once again.

The gentleman in the article says he will not do it "out of principle". He says he has young kids and he is outraged he has to fill anything in and apply for this. 

Fine, don't do it, suit yourself. But please dont suggest that the "polish community" feel this way. Or if he hasn't done so, the media have spinned it that way.

If on the balance he would rather move back to Poland and leave 15 years he has build here and take his kids out of a country that is their only known home, just because he cannot complete this application which hundreds of thousands people have done, that's on his conscience. Heck, he DEMANDS rights yet he cannot even fill in a simple online form. 

I just cannot see HIS point of view. And let's not argue about a hypothetical scenario. Let's talk about his case. What is his problem other than "principle"? 

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When I moved to Spain, there was a legal requirement to register my address with the government.

When I moved Poland, there was a legal requirement to register my address with the government.

When I moved to Finland, there was a legal requirement to register my address with the government AND they made me attend an interview at the immigration office.

This faux outrage about the UK introducing a system that appears to have been standard practice across other EU countries for many years seems somewhat overblown (and slightly ironic).

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1 hour ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said:

When I moved to Finland, there was a legal requirement to register my address with the government AND they made me attend an interview at the immigration office.

Same as NL, I had to go to the Police station for some reason for the immigration process.  Filling forms out is how you trigger you rights and receive them properly,  a few hoops to jump through.  Because I did this as required it meant I received a Dutch passport in the end as well as a UK one years later.

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9 hours ago, Mic09 said:

This was free and took 5 minutes. How else can I prove this?

I am quite happy to accept that YOUR application was easy, smooth, took no longer than a short time, &.

Your application was not free. You told us that earlier. It cost the £65 that was being charged for applying through the EU settlement scheme originally and you were refunded that money.

Applications through that scheme are now free.

Quote

As far as I'm aware, the £2k+ is for when you are outside of the EU which is not what we are discussing here.

That would be the case now I'd assume, too. That would be because there is an EU SETTLEMENT SCHEME which, as per Immigration Rules Apppendix EU, is now:

Quote

the basis on which an EEA citizen and their family members, and the family members of a qualifying British citizen, will, if they apply under it, be granted indefinite leave to enter or remain or limited leave to enter or remain

If you look at the next section, it quite clearly shows that ILR (also known as Settled Status) is not the only outcome of a seuccessful application via the scheme. Also possible are: 'five years' limited leave to enter' or ''five years' limited leave to remain', which I am assuming is what is termed 'pre-Settled Status'.

Prior to the scheme being opened (which only officially happened on the 30th March - earlier uses of the scheme were limited trials), how would an EU, EEA or Swiss citizen have obtained ILR?

I'm going to assume that your journey through this whole process (knowing as you did about ILR before you came to the UK as a kid), didn't take place all within the last year (I think the first trial of the scheme took place last August)?

9 hours ago, Mic09 said:

We are arguing something very silly here and getting way to deep into the rabbit hole

No, we aren't. We arguing over the things that you have claimed which form the justification for your position.

Unfortunately, a lot of it doesn't hold water such as the things about the scheme which do not tally even with the government's own website which describes the scheme.

9 hours ago, Mic09 said:

The gentleman in the article says he will not do it "out of principle". He says he has young kids and he is outraged he has to fill anything in and apply for this. 

Fine, don't do it, suit yourself. But please dont suggest that the "polish community" feel this way. Or if he hasn't done so, the media have spinned it that way.

I think you may be reading something in to it that isn't there. I haven't read the Peterborough Telegraph's article but I don't think that a parochial rag is really 'the media'. From what i gather he is saying the way that he feels and he may be asking that if other people also feel that way then they could support his campaign (and If UK citizens also feel the same then they could sign his petition). I certainly don't see it as anything exclusively Polish - perhaps there is a line in that Peterborough rag that explicitly says it is or even implies that. From reading this tweet and reading many other examples of other nationalities who also feel this way, it comes across as something that some people feel regardless of whether they are Polish, Spanish, Italian or whatever.

 

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3 hours ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said:

When I moved to Spain, there was a legal requirement to register my address with the government.

When I moved Poland, there was a legal requirement to register my address with the government.

Firstly, that's about registering not applying.

Secondly, it's part of the process of moving to that country - not part of a process imposed after you haved moved to a country.

If, after having moved there according to the immigration rules at the time, you were then told that you had to APPLY (not register - applications carry with them the possibility of being refused) to retain the rights that you had and to retain the right to live in your own home, to continue to work in your job, to continue to run your business, &c. then you might view it differently even to a simple registration process. A great deal of people going through the process don't have a problem with it at all; a great deal of people who may have a problem will just say that it needs to be done and they just want to get it out of the way. Some, however, are saying that they take issue with it. Some may not even know about it or may think that it doesn't apply to them as they've lived here for over thirty years, have a Permanent Residence card or so on. And some may be unable to go through the process for various reasons, such as being vulnerable, without the requisite technology, access to media, internet, &c.

I have to say, personally, that I have an issue with registration processes but if it has to be done then it should be done for everyone (along the lines of the now annual declaration required for the Electoral Register).

Edited by snowychap
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2 hours ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said:

Same as NL, I had to go to the Police station for some reason for the immigration process.  Filling forms out is how you trigger you rights and receive them properly,  a few hoops to jump through.  Because I did this as required it meant I received a Dutch passport in the end as well as a UK one years later.

Again, that's the action of registration as part of the process of the country knowing that you are there exercising your treaty rights.

That is not the same thing as being required to apply for the rights that you are, and have been for a time, already exercising.

As I said above, I'm not personally a fan of registration processes but a registration process is fundamentally different to an application process.

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10 hours ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said:

When I moved to Spain, there was a legal requirement to register my address with the government.

When I moved Poland, there was a legal requirement to register my address with the government.

When I moved to Finland, there was a legal requirement to register my address with the government AND they made me attend an interview at the immigration office.

This faux outrage about the UK introducing a system that appears to have been standard practice across other EU countries for many years seems somewhat overblown (and slightly ironic).

I have many friends who are from the EU. No one has complained about this application, and many went one step further and just sorted themselves a British nationality.

I just feel that most immigrants that I know (myself included in this) are humble enough to be thankful for Britain welcoming us following Brexit. 

We are guests here. We are not nationals. A simple application is not a problem for anyone I met.

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3 minutes ago, bickster said:

May says MPs will get the chance to vote on a second referendum IF they vote for the Withdrawal Bill

it's just trolling now

You couldn't make it up, could you 😂

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14 minutes ago, bickster said:

May says MPs will get the chance to vote on a second referendum IF they vote for the Withdrawal Bill

it's just trolling now

Laughably weak leadership.

"These are my principles and if you don't like them I have others..."

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seems like a better option than letting things run to no deal. I'm **** fed up of the idealists everywhere. Just **** agree this, have a vote on the referendum and move on. 

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54 minutes ago, bickster said:

May says MPs will get the chance to vote on a second referendum IF they vote for the Withdrawal Bill

it's just trolling now

Yep.

Far too much trolling going on with the whole subject.

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13 minutes ago, Rodders said:

**** it, just vote for it. get the referendum voted on and end this. 

 

 

 

Just now, Rodders said:

seems like a better option than letting things run to no deal. I'm **** fed up of the idealists everywhere. Just **** agree this, have a vote on the referendum and move on. 

A vote for the withdrawal agreement, even if accompanied by a referendum on the withdrawal agreement, will not 'end' this.

After that, the serious stuff begins.

Brexit does not end with the Withdrawal Agreement being ratified.

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21 minutes ago, Chindie said:

Unfortunately for her, nobody, quite rightly, trusts her, so this so shouldn't get anyone on side at all.

How can anyone take her seriously when she proposes to commit a future government (of which she is unlikely to be part) or even a future Parliament (which can't be bound by a previous Parliament) to specific processes and procedures when she is appearing, by introducing the WAB having failed with the meaningful votes, to effectively bypass specific procedures already set out in statute, to which she and her government agreed to be bound?

It's all this 'in law' nonsense.

Edited by snowychap
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