The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[MrDuck]

Britain has become an international laughing stock over brexit. As an Brit living for many years overseas, its embarrassing and deeply saddening.

[snowychap]

1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said:

Yes, that's how I read it too. I guess whether you think we will have a clear purpose depends on whether we have the indicative votes, which Lidington said there would be earlier in the day. I know that the government can't be trusted on anything at all, but maybe they won't feel they have the choice to duck them? 

Matt Hancock (who seems to have been the man sent out to do the media rounds tonight - C4 news, BBC, Sky, Newsnight I think) certainly told John Snow that he 'hopes they don't go down the road of indicative votes' as 'the votes that we have been having in Parliament are indicative', i.e. he meant that the Labour deal was off the table, a second ref was off the table, &c. He didn't seem to apply the same logic to the WA vote, though.

I know we're living in a world of cabinet ministers doing what they want, when they want but as he was obviously briefed to go out and spread the word after this evening''s votes, I think he was likely to have been giving a big hint as to the government''s current stance on all that.

[sharkyvilla]

27 minutes ago, MrDuck said:

Britain has become an international laughing stock over brexit. As an Brit living for many years overseas, its embarrassing and deeply saddening.

Despite being a remainer, I do wonder why it's so difficult to leave the EU, and that isn't necessarily the fault of our government.  May is doing a shit job but at the same time it's almost an impossible one.

[ml1dch]

8 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said:

Despite being a remainer, I do wonder why it's so difficult to leave the EU, and that isn't necessarily the fault of our government.  May is doing a shit job but at the same time it's almost an impossible one.

It's not hard at all. MPs just need to vote for the withdrawal agreement. Or do nothing and we leave on March 29th.

Couldn't be easier.

[NurembergVillan]

8 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said:

Despite being a remainer, I do wonder why it's so difficult to leave the EU, and that isn't necessarily the fault of our government.  May is doing a shit job but at the same time it's almost an impossible one.

The EU is based on four freedoms - the free movement of goods, services, capital and labour.

They are indivisible. You can't pick and choose, you're either taking all four or you're not taking any.

We want to pick and choose, but it's not a case of the EU being hostile. It simply doesn't work. That's why the island of Ireland is such a sticking point. Well, that and centuries of fighting about the imaginary line about 2/3 of the way up it.

[chrisp65]

4 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said:

Despite being a remainer, I do wonder why it's so difficult to leave the EU, and that isn't necessarily the fault of our government.  May is doing a shit job but at the same time it's almost an impossible one.

I too think its actually really easy.

They literally cannot make us stay. But what we're trying to do is keep the good bits of club membership but stop paying the subs and obeying the rules. Whilst promising some orange order loons they can have ease of movement, business as usual and enhanced britishness.

That, it turns out, is less easy.

[snowychap]

1 minute ago, sharkyvilla said:

Despite being a remainer, I do wonder why it's so difficult to leave the EU, and that isn't necessarily the fault of our government.  May is doing a shit job but at the same time it's almost an impossible one.

It's difficult because it's a huge undertaking, requiring a massive amount of legal, technical and political effort and will and a certain amount of unity.

But it's really difficult because very, very few people gave any sort of consideration before the referendum as to what they wanted to happen from June 24th 2016 onwards (whether their 'side' won or not) and those that did were, and still are, largely ignored by the people campaigning at the time, the people in charge who sodded off and the people who took charge believing that they had it all covered.

Sorry - bit of a broken record, I know.

[sharkyvilla]

3 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

It's not hard at all. MPs just need to vote for the withdrawal agreement. Or do nothing and we leave on March 29th.

Couldn't be easier.

Hence the 'impossible' bit.  May's deal is all that the EU are going to agree to as far as I can see, which is terminal to any agreement in parliament.  They can do as many amendments and votes as they want, it won't change that fact.

[Chindie]

6 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said:

Despite being a remainer, I do wonder why it's so difficult to leave the EU, and that isn't necessarily the fault of our government.  May is doing a shit job but at the same time it's almost an impossible one.

It's really easy to leave the EU (ironically given how much 'Eurosceptics'hated it, Lisbon actually made it have a codified method of leaving that didn't exist before officially). You give notification, activate Article 50, and wait.

The difficulty is if you need to leave whilst maintaining some connections to it, especially where there is a land border.

We are in an particularly awkward situation in that our government has set certain red lines that rule out closer ties that then cause issues with the border, which also happens to be one of the most politically grim borders on Earth. Had we not set those red lines, we'd be having far less trouble.

[StefanAVFC]

4 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said:

Hence the 'impossible' bit.  May's deal is all that the EU are going to agree to as far as I can see, which is terminal to any agreement in parliament.  They can do as many amendments and votes as they want, it won't change that fact.

May's deal has her own red lines which stops us getting a decent deal.

It's entirely her/our fault.

[snowychap]

Edit: There have already been enough posts in response. No need to repeat what has been said above by Stefan & Chindie.

Edited March 14, 2019 by snowychap

[sharkyvilla]

1 minute ago, Chindie said:

It's really easy to leave the EU (ironically given how much 'Eurosceptics'hated it, Lisbon actually made it have a codified method of leaving that didn't exist before officially). You give notification, activate Article 50, and wait.

The difficulty is if you need to leave whilst maintaining some connections to it, especially where there is a land border.

We are in an particularly awkward situation in that our government has set certain red lines that rule out closer ties that then cause issues with the border, which also happens to be one of the most politically grim borders on Earth. Had we not set those red lines, we'd be having far less trouble.

And relaxing on those red lines wouldn't get the withdrawal agreement through parliament either, I  can almost guarantee it.  Shifting one way would just upset too many other MPs.  The only solution is a referendum, May's deal vs remain.  All this is a waste of **** time.

[ml1dch]

9 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said:

Hence the 'impossible' bit.  May's deal is all that the EU are going to agree to as far as I can see, which is terminal to any agreement in parliament.  They can do as many amendments and votes as they want, it won't change that fact.

Nobody is holding the families of those MPs hostage. 

The only thing preventing us leaving is a belated panic on behalf of our MPs who had little idea of the consequences that they thought they wouldn't have to worry about. 

Walking in front of a bus is very easy as long as you don't mind the consequences.

[Chindie]

8 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said:

And relaxing on those red lines wouldn't get the withdrawal agreement through parliament either, I  can almost guarantee it.  Shifting one way would just upset too many other MPs.  The only solution is a referendum, May's deal vs remain.  All this is a waste of **** time.

There's probably a majority in Parliament for a 'soft' Brexit. Nobody wants to push that too hard yet because it risks spooking the horses in the voting population, but if the indicative votes happen and one is for something like Norway, I reckon it would have the strongest backing. There's only a few hardcore No Deal lunatics, and a lot of the bigger names in the Tory party aren't acting solely on the basis of what they think it's the best outcome for the country, they're feathering nests for leadership bids when May finally, finally keels over and brings her zombie premiership to an end.

That would require deleting red lines. Is it the best outcome? No. The best outcome is remaining. But it lets the referendum be 'discharged' (oddly suitable word for a nasty problem you just want to rid yourself of) and gives you the least impactful outcome.

I don't think a second referendum is going to happen in truth, and in many ways that's a good thing. Referendums are bad. I understand the logic of wanting one here, but all the same problems are still there.

[KenjiOgiwara]

6 hours ago, sharkyvilla said:

Despite being a remainer, I do wonder why it's so difficult to leave the EU, and that isn't necessarily the fault of our government.  May is doing a shit job but at the same time it's almost an impossible one.

It's been one of the biggest arguments not to join the EU here in Norway. 

[blandy]

9 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

To be honest, this seems like how you would expect the opposition to behave. It really isn't the opposition's job to offer to destroy themselves in public opinion because May can't persuade her own backbenchers. 

Unless the government changes, any referendum is more likely to be between May's WA (or a future Tory descendant thereof) and No Deal. Remember that the largest party in Parliament would have to vote for the legislation enabling it. 

I think almost the exact opposite of this. If there’s another ref it will be between leave and remain, not between leave version1 and leave version2.

[snowychap]

An interesting point on a request for an A50 extension (link) :

Quote

Article 50(3) says that the two-year period can be extended by the European Council acting by unanimity (all 27 EU heads of state or government do not have to agree, it means only that none must disagree; abstentions do not block unanimity).

 

[chrisp65]

[blandy]

No matter what side,  the levels of hypocrisy are off the scale

[foreveryoung]

I must watch to much Question Time, but it seems one of the big reasons the other parties are not voting for the deal is for there own political agenda, not caring about the referendum result.

The deals not gonna change, an we have to leave now, so lets get on with it.  It's just the start, this was supposed to be the easy bit!!!