tonyh29 Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 Just now, bickster said: You need to do comprehension 101, the backbench throbber in Cheif was Sir Graham Brady You need to do keep up 101 , I’m referring to all Tories not individual Tories Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted March 12, 2019 Moderator Share Posted March 12, 2019 1 minute ago, tonyh29 said: Everyone got so fixated on the backstop they seem to have overlooked that very valid point Hardly, the backstop rules are what made it a very terrible deal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 1 minute ago, bickster said: The EU have already said this many times, they'd much prefer the chance to keep us in And letting Parliament decide I’d argue is their best bet for this , isn’t it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted March 12, 2019 Moderator Share Posted March 12, 2019 Just now, tonyh29 said: And letting Parliament decide I’d argue is their best bet for this , isn’t it ? Don't think you get very good odds on that hapening any time in the current parliament and I'm fairly sure the EU realise that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 4 minutes ago, bickster said: Hardly, the backstop rules are what made it a very terrible deal Tony's right. Ring-fence the backstop and completely ignore it, what remains is still an ugly car-crash. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted March 12, 2019 Moderator Share Posted March 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, ml1dch said: Tony's right. Ring-fence the backstop and completely ignore it, what remains is still an ugly car-crash. Yes I'd agree, its terrible on many levels, even without the backstop rules it's dreadful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 3 minutes ago, bickster said: Don't think you get very good odds on that hapening any time in the current parliament and I'm fairly sure the EU realise that Mogg ( insert adjective of choice) said on the. beeb earlier that about 75% of Parliament are remain ... this is also backed up in a few google searches maybe Fear of their constituents means they would vote agaisnt their own personal view , but in a straight No Deal or No Brexit I’d see No Brexit winning if parlaiment decided 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackbauer24 Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 5 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: If you were the EU , why run the risk of a second ref potentially still returning a leave vote and going through the process all over again But , I guess you could say why risk that it wouldn’t be No deal that Parliament went with of the 2 options But this is the crucial difference and why a second referendum is the only choice; the first vote was a "do you want to leave" but we won't explain how and all the different ways that could be achieved. The second one would be THIS* deal and no more debate. So indicative votes that assume we leave deciding on the most popular (even if it's just the best of all horrible options) and THIS* is the deal that is put to the public versus remain. The public decide if they're happy to leave if this is what leave will look like. Leave wins - no discussion, either May's deal or No Deal activated Remain win - we stay after all How this isn't a common sense approach to the problem from both sides of the argument completely astounds me. Voting is not undemocratic. Time and situations have changed. MPs have voted on same deak twice (so far) so why can't the public? Fear of a democratic vote is insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 13 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: The reason the vast majority of people are voting against the deal is because it's a **** terrible deal I agree they need to still sort the backstop. But I have no idea why people thought the EU knobbers where ever gonna let us out with a good deal. They have yet again hinted recently they dont want us out!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted March 12, 2019 Moderator Share Posted March 12, 2019 Just now, tonyh29 said: Mogg ( insert adjective of choice) said on the. beeb earlier that about 75% of Parliament are remain ... this is also backed up in a few google searches maybe Fear of their constituents means they would vote agaisnt their own personal view , but in a straight No Deal or No Brexit I’d see No Brexit winning if parlaiment decided In many ways I hope that is correct. I suspect however, many MPs are too worried about their position as you suggest What is the possibility of getting a secret ballot? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 1 minute ago, jackbauer24 said: The second one would be THIS* deal and no more debate. Would it though ? way things are at the moment it would probably take 2 years to decide on the wording for the referendum question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted March 12, 2019 Moderator Share Posted March 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: I agree they need to still sort the backstop. But I have no idea why people thought the EU knobbers where ever gonna let us out with a good deal. They have yet again hinted recently they dont want us out!! a) This deal occurred because of OUR (or May's to be precise) red lines, this isn't the EU doing anything but reacting to the way we have told them we want to leave. If we'd have said from the off, we want a deal similar to Switzerland or Norway, then thats what they would have worked towards and come up with a yearly price for that access to their market. This deal is much more a product of this country's desires as told to the eu that anything the EU are trying to impose on us. b) They have never said anything oither than they'd prefer us to stay. There has been no hinting about it, it has been the stated desired outcome from the very beginning of the process 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 How some of the press called it this morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PompeyVillan Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 I think the government could say tomorrow that we've left the EU, but actually tell a big lie and keep us in the EU. I would suggest that a good 80% of the people that voted for Brexit wouldn't notice that we'd actually remained. Let's just call it a day now, shall we. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Chindie Posted March 12, 2019 VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted March 12, 2019 8 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: I agree they need to still sort the backstop. But I have no idea why people thought the EU knobbers where ever gonna let us out with a good deal. They have yet again hinted recently they dont want us out!! The backstop as it stands has been negotiated to the UK's advantage. We wouldn't accept Northern Ireland being cut off and insisted it applied across the entirety of the UK. The deal is bad because of red lines May has put in place. The EU even set out an easy to understand diagram of the deals on offer to us (the so called Barnier Staircase). There were 'good' deals on it. Norway for instance. None as good as staying, but better than what we have managed to agree within the red lines May has set for us. Much of the EU would certainly rather we didn't leave. It's easier for everyone. But they aren't going to hold us hostage. For a start they can't. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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Mark Albrighton Posted March 12, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted March 12, 2019 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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KenjiOgiwara Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 44 minutes ago, snowychap said: That's a photoshop job waiting if I ever saw one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 3 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said: That's a photoshop job waiting if I ever saw one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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