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The now-enacted will of (some of) the people


blandy

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7 minutes ago, snowychap said:

I did see on Newsnight last night that it wasn't apparently quite as dead as reported - at least that's what May is saying to the ERGs in her meetings with them, it was claimed.

Imagine that, she (and her government representatives) couldn't be saying one thing to one lot of people and something else to another, could they? :D

I don't think anyone believes a word she says anymore and if they do, more fool them

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20 minutes ago, Chindie said:

I don't think anyone thinks it's 'only' Brexit that is the issue. With Honda it appears the plant has been struggling for a while, for instance. But Brexit is a factor (I believe Honda themselves admitted it was a concern in the same much vaunted statement they said it wasn't), and it has to be due simply to logistics. But people have said it isn't Brexit isn't the issue at all. And that's simply not true.

As for commenting on your post yesterday, since you obviously directed this comment at me, I was doing other things yesterday and looking at it now, it appears to mostly be directed at a post I didn't like or agree with, so why waste my time countering it (if I even felt it should be)? And yes I've made a few pokes at your stance, but that's because you're the leading poster here that seems to rubbish or diminish criticism of Brexit. It's taken nearly 3 years to get to the point that Brexit has any effect at all in these posts, I seem to recall previously it was just denied or hand waved. Now its hand waved with 'yeah, it's a factor, but a back of the queue not really relevant at all factor so don't be hysterical'.

I didn't necessarily direct it at you , I was just relaying sequences  of merriment , of which you were one of the posters

your first sentence is interesting because your posts previously don't' really reflect that view   ,

that would have been at the planes disappearing from the skies , the empty shelves and the hundred of thousands of lost city jobs   ... I still stand by that wont happen

there is an element of May and the **** about the negotiating , arguably I should have predicted that  , but that does change the outcome of Brexit somewhat , hence I've had to acknowledge it , it's also why I said recently that I would withdraw article 50 and "do it properly" once the inevitable political split happens  ( I assumed a Tory lead split at the time , be interesting to see how the Indie party plays out  )

 

I think as @blandy said , a lot of people are saying things in that there real world and not VT world  ..I guess the difficulty is when posters make a comment is trying to filter if they mean VT or real world

 

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19 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

I didn't necessarily direct it at you , I was just relaying sequences  of merriment , of which you were one of the posters

your first sentence is interesting because your posts previously don't' really reflect that view   ,

that would have been at the planes disappearing from the skies , the empty shelves and the hundred of thousands of lost city jobs   ... I still stand by that wont happen

there is an element of May and the **** about the negotiating , arguably I should have predicted that  , but that does change the outcome of Brexit somewhat , hence I've had to acknowledge it , it's also why I said recently that I would withdraw article 50 and "do it properly" once the inevitable political split happens  ( I assumed a Tory lead split at the time , be interesting to see how the Indie party plays out  )

 

I think as @blandy said , a lot of people are saying things in that there real world and not VT world  ..I guess the difficulty is when posters make a comment is trying to filter if they mean VT or real world

 

With Honda, Brexit is a factor. It's another stab, and a significant one (it can't not be), but it's not the lone stab. But that doesn't mean Brexit isn't a big deal for many industries, and it shouldn't be diminished or denied.

There are things that are almost solely Brexit based. If No Deal comes about, there simply is an effect on aviation. Had the EU not made concessions to limit damage to itself, it would have been the case that EU bound flights would stop. And even with that there would be still be an impact for UK carriers. Hence why the various aviation bodies were waving their hands around saying 'this is **** stupid' months and months ago. Your denial of this seems to just be an incredulous 'nah won't happen', despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Empty shelves could still happen. We're very reliant on imports. If No Deal happens, supply chains instantly get strained. We've seen before how quickly things go bad when imports are hampered, with the petrol crisis. What herbs when that is the case for everything? This is a country that clears shelves when minor snow happens, that had people calling police when KFC ran out of chicken because it simply changed its logistics carrier. And people are already getting advised to stock up on essential medicines.

And City jobs have been going. The list of insurers and banks moving capacity and jobs is ever growing. Maybe it won't be as significant as first feared, but even 1 job lost is a bad thing in my view, a negative result from Brexit. And it could get worse. Let's not forget that May's deal completely ignores services (which seems like a completely mental thing to do, but then she's wired up wrong evidently).

I was glad to see you think we should withdraw A50. I hope it's the first tentative step to realising you've made a mistake (although of course by saying that I've missed likely hardened the view you've not. But you have).

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38 minutes ago, Chindie said:

 

There are things that are almost solely Brexit based. If No Deal comes about, there simply is an effect on aviation. Had the EU not made concessions to limit damage to itself, it would have been the case that EU bound flights would stop. And even with that there would be still be an impact for UK carriers. Hence why the various aviation bodies were waving their hands around saying 'this is **** stupid' months and months ago. Your denial of this seems to just be an incredulous 'nah won't happen', despite all the evidence to the contrary.

I work for an Aerospace company and Brexit is explicitly the biggest risk faced by our company (or rather by our specific branch of the company) at the moment, especially with the noises Airbus have been making.

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1 minute ago, Stevo985 said:

I work for an Aerospace company and Brexit is explicitly the biggest risk faced by our company (or rather by our specific branch of the company) at the moment, especially with the noises Airbus have been making.

nah mate , you're wrong ..

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7 minutes ago, Chindie said:

I was glad to see you think we should withdraw A50. I hope it's the first tentative step to realising you've made a mistake (although of course by saying that I've missed likely hardened the view you've not. But you have).

I know Bicks dismissed it because it was on the BBC and therefore more biased than a mother on Facebook praising her kids   , but the 3 part EU  programme called 10 years of turmoil was an interesting piece ... It's not quite in the making your blood boil category but watching that show kinda reaffirmed for me some reasons why we should be out of the EU (the actions towards Greece , Italy , bending the rules when it suited Germany (and France to a lesser degree)  )  .... maybe it was just me viewing it with a leave slant  , I don't know if anyone else watched the show  ? and how they viewed it ? 

unquestionably it has some merits but I still think the EU is a flawed concept    ... thus  I still think leaving is a good idea but not on terms of No deal Brexit ( unless we /they implement emergency contingencies for business as usual on day 1 whilst we then negotiate each area , which i raised more as a question a few weeks /months back i.e could it work as a managed staged withdrawal  )

My view was we got one shot at leaving and it was worth pursuing , if we withdraw and stay I won't be marching on Downing street  , though of course there will be many who might  ...

 

 

 

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27 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

I work for an Aerospace company and Brexit is explicitly the biggest risk faced by our company (or rather by our specific branch of the company) at the moment, especially with the noises Airbus have been making.

I linked to that yesterday  , the noises airbus have been making were that it would be  "many, many years" before U.K. employees would be affected in case the company decides to relocate

Obviously you're closer to it than most  , What are they saying inside the industry , that they aren't saying publicly ?

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3 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

though of course there will be many who might

Ah that old chesnut, apart from a few rag taggle bunch of Tommy Twuntface wannabes this is the real project fear, who are these rioters going to be and how long before they die? Have you seen how many knobheads turn up to these yellow vest things, it's in the tens every single time. 

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Just now, bickster said:

Ah that old chesnut, apart from a few rag taggle bunch of Tommy Twuntface wannabes this is the real project fear, who are these rioters going to be and how long before they die? Have you seen how many knobheads turn up to these yellow vest things, it's in the tens every single time. 

it wasn't a chestnut  or even talk of rioting ( lets leave that to the left :) , it was just a turn of phrase  that i guess I didn't word very well  ... I meant  that for me personally I wouldn't be taking to the streets if the govt withdrew plans to leave talking about enemies of the people  ...  my guess is that some will 

 

 

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3 hours ago, tonyh29 said:

Both myself and LD ( the only 2 to comment) said it wasn’t “just Brexit” 

so nobody has actually said it’s nothing to do with Brexit

This has been broadly covered since, but to clarify - if I were directly trying to argue with something that either of you had said, I'd have quoted what I was rebutting.

To be honest, I was simply plagiarising something that I heard John Crace say yesterday which amused me.

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55 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

 the 3 part EU  programme called 10 years of turmoil was an interesting piece ... It's not quite in the making your blood boil category but watching that show kinda reaffirmed for me some reasons why we should be out of the EU (the actions towards Greece , Italy , bending the rules when it suited Germany (and France to a lesser degree)  )  .... maybe it was just me viewing it with a leave slant  , I don't know if anyone else watched the show  ? and how they viewed it ? 

I watched it. I thought it was calm, well researched and balanced and gave every side time to pitch their view of events.

Programme Precis:

EU rules are absolute and cannot be messed with. Unless for the temporary political convenience of Germany and / or France.

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2 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

I watched it. I thought it was calm, well researched and balanced and gave every side time to pitch their view of events.

Programme Precis:

EU rules are absolute and cannot be messed with. Unless for the temporary political convenience of Germany and / or France.

Schengen, EMU, "ever closer union". You boys got more slack from the EU than anyone. You literally even got a discount on membership!

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5 hours ago, Enda said:

Schengen, EMU, "ever closer union". You boys got more slack from the EU than anyone. You literally even got a discount on membership!

mmmm, maybe. Perhaps if there had been genuine pragmatism, genuine concessions we might not all be in this mess. But the policy of France and Germany to drive and drive and drive towards a United States of Europe just proved too much to swallow. 

Perhaps our leaving will actually be of benefit to the smaller nations like Ireland and Greece. Perhaps the realisation by France and Germany that countries can leave will cause them not to run the EU for their sole benefit. For a while.

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8 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

mmmm, maybe. Perhaps if there had been genuine pragmatism, genuine concessions we might not all be in this mess. But the policy of France and Germany to drive and drive and drive towards a United States of Europe just proved too much to swallow. 

Perhaps our leaving will actually be of benefit to the smaller nations like Ireland and Greece. Perhaps the realisation by France and Germany that countries can leave will cause them not to run the EU for their sole benefit. For a while.

Exactly, at no stage really has the EU recognised there are at least some genuine reasons (i.e. beyond racism) why people want to leave.  I dislike a fair bit of the EU but thought on top of keeping frictionless trade, the pain in the arse that leaving brings made it worth remaining.  I can't believe there isn't a better mechanism in place for countries to leave on a more friendly basis, something which is pretty outrageous for a democratic union of countries.

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I think a lot of the pain of leaving (by a lot, I mean approx 99.9%) has been caused by having both main parties voting through article 50 to start the clock and only then having an internal dialogue on what it is they wanted.

Two years later, 5 minutes left on the clock, they still haven't decided. 

To be fair, that's not the EU's problem. There's a basic truth they can't make it easier or better to be outside the club, we just don't appear to get that most basic idea. Which is a worry for us in our government lead dealings with the rest of the world. Which apparently, will be some of the easiest deals ever done.

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12 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

I think a lot of the pain of leaving (by a lot, I mean approx 99.9%) has been caused by having both main parties voting through article 50 to start the clock and only then having an internal dialogue on what it is they wanted.

Two years later, 5 minutes left on the clock, they still haven't decided. 

To be fair, that's not the EU's problem. There's a basic truth they can't make it easier or better to be outside the club, we just don't appear to get that most basic idea. Which is a worry for us in our government lead dealings with the rest of the world. Which apparently, will be some of the easiest deals ever done.

Red lines innit. Drop the May red lines and much of the pain disappears, but then some people in the U.K. would be cross.

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