Genie Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 7 minutes ago, snowychap said: The difference is that they reopened the Withdrawal Agreement as negotiated by May's government and renegotiated a new arrangement between them and Johnson's government. That is the thing that is ready to go. The May one is in the bin. Yes, going back to the May agreement could be a possibility but I don't think that is the same as suggesting that there are two 'live' options on the table that the UK unilaterallly has a choice of (and thus could pick from and put to the electorate). So we have "renegotiated a new arrangement between them and Johnson's government. That is the thing that is ready to go". and "going back to the May agreement could be a possibility" I make that 2 options and the currently existing as text on pieces of paper only. No need to continue arguing and boring everybody though. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Genie said: So we have "renegotiated a new arrangement between them and Johnson's government. That is the thing that is ready to go". and "going back to the May agreement could be a possibility" I make that 2 options and the currently existing as text on pieces of paper only. No need to continue arguing and boring everybody though. No, it is not two options (as in two options at the same state). I agree there is no point in continuing this conversation. Edited November 5, 2019 by snowychap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Genie said: Yes, If Labour got in I'd prefer they looked at what we had, then stuck it on a ballot paper alongside remain. I wish they wouldn't even pretend they could negotiate something better with the EU. They aren't 'pretending'; they can negotiate something different with the EU. It's just a different step on the staircase (I can never find that graphic these days, if anyone knows what I mean? The staircase with the different flags on it, that someone from the EU put out way back at the beginning of all this) and since it would involve less divergence with the EU, it would naturally be easier to negotiate. The idea that a majority Labour government should simply give up on the possibility of something more aligned with their voter's interests, in favour of a hard Brexit deal negotiated by Boris Johnson, is just bizarre. Part of the problem here is your use of the word 'better'. People from all sides, and the media, keep talking about 'better' deals, but every deal is 'better' for some things than others. Johnson's deal is 'better' for a future united Ireland, and free trade deals with the USA and others; May's deal was 'better' for regulatory alignment but also immigration restrictions; Labour's deal would be 'better' for regulatory alignment and joining the EU in negotiating trade deals with third countries. They're not just pieces of paper, they have real differences and would create massively different futures. Edited November 5, 2019 by HanoiVillan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted November 5, 2019 Author Moderator Share Posted November 5, 2019 2 hours ago, HanoiVillan said: The idea that a majority Labour government should simply give up on the possibility of something more aligned with their voter's interests, in favour of a hard Brexit deal negotiated by Boris Johnson, is just bizarre. That's absolutely right. Yet, maybe the EU would accept re-opening it all up again. Maybe they wouldn't. It's not up to (future) Labour, it's not in their gift. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 16 minutes ago, blandy said: That's absolutely right. Yet, maybe the EU would accept re-opening it all up again. Maybe they wouldn't. It's not up to (future) Labour, it's not in their gift. I mean, technically you're right, but it's extremely hard to imagine the EU declining to do so. And if they did decline to re-open the agreement, in the case of a Labour government, then lucky days for Remainers! Because Labour wouldn't leave with no deal, so they would pretty much have to revoke under those circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 5, 2019 Moderator Share Posted November 5, 2019 22 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: I mean, technically you're right, but it's extremely hard to imagine the EU declining to do so. And if they did decline to re-open the agreement, in the case of a Labour government, then lucky days for Remainers! Because Labour wouldn't leave with no deal, so they would pretty much have to revoke under those circumstances. I'd wager they wouldn't. They'd still go down the referendum route. They'd be too concerned that a straight revoke would upset the daytime Wetherspoons drinkers of Stoke too much. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 1 minute ago, bickster said: I'd wager they wouldn't. They'd still go down the referendum route. They'd be too concerned that a straight revoke would upset the daytime Wetherspoons drinkers of Stoke too much. Well I disagree, but it's a hypothetical that isn't going to get tested, because the EU aren't going to refuse to reopen the agreement for a newly-elected government, who were elected specifically on a platform of re-opening said agreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said: Well I disagree, but it's a hypothetical that isn't going to get tested, because the EU aren't going to refuse to reopen the agreement for a newly-elected government, who were elected specifically on a platform of re-opening said agreement. I have nothing to link to, and it's third-hand anecdotal information, so should be treated with all the suspicion that entails - but I've been led to believe that there's no need to renegotiate anything, it's already been done. Starmer's numerous trips to Brussels to see Barnier weren't just beer and waffle tours. If there's a Labour administration then the broad agreement gets wheeled out pretty quickly. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 10 minutes ago, ml1dch said: I have nothing to link to, and it's third-hand anecdotal information, so should be treated with all the suspicion that entails - but I've been led to believe that there's no need to renegotiate anything, it's already been done. Starmer's numerous trips to Brussels to see Barnier weren't just beer and waffle tours. If there's a Labour administration then the broad agreement gets wheeled out pretty quickly. That's exactly my understanding as well to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 Reminds me of this from the Office Quote David Brent: I gave a speech only this morning to my staff assuring them that there would not be cutbacks at this branch and there certainly wouldn't be redundancies, so... Jennifer Taylor-Clark: Well, why on Earth would you do that? David Brent: Why? Oh, don't know. A little word I think's important in management called morale. Jennifer Taylor-Clark: Well, surely it's going to be worse for morale in the long run when there ARE redundancies and you've told people that there won't be. [pause] David Brent: They won't remember. Boris has gone full Brent. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 He says whatever he needs to say to win an election. Once he’s elected again nothing can be done about it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted November 8, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted November 8, 2019 On 05/11/2019 at 20:57, ml1dch said: I have nothing to link to, and it's third-hand anecdotal information, so should be treated with all the suspicion that entails - but I've been led to believe that there's no need to renegotiate anything, it's already been done. Starmer's numerous trips to Brussels to see Barnier weren't just beer and waffle tours. If there's a Labour administration then the broad agreement gets wheeled out pretty quickly. If that's the case then why don't they announce that and fight the election on that basis ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 49 minutes ago, tinker said: If that's the case then why don't they announce that and fight the election on that basis ? I guess the the EU side is quite happy with all its eggs being in the Johnson agreement and would rather not be open to accusations of playing both sides. I guess Labour don't want to have to put up with the cries of anguish from the "we'd have got a better deal if you hadn't been undermining poor Boris!!" morons. If it's true of course. Which it could very easily not be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Five Ken McNaughts Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 On 1 September 2019 at 22:07, NurembergVillan said: I do wonder if they'd have been so incompetent if it weren't brown people and "foreigners" they were processing. Probably my first, last and only post in this thread. If it wasn't for a few Friday Guinness, I wouldn't have dived into any dreaded politics at all. I personally don't care how anyone voted in the referendum. My own family was split. All of us rational, intelligent, well-meaning people. I have long since stepped away from the whole thing on account of the venom, labels and stereotypes from the chaos-mongers in the media. There are successful European nations inside the EU, and successful European nations outside the EU. Both possible results were perfectly reasonable outcomes for the 650 public servants (MPs) at Westminster to implement, in conjunction with fellow professional people in Brussels (rather than everyone on all sides regressing to the playground sandpit). I highlight your point, @NurembergVillan, only to make the minor observation that the campaign to leave the EU championed a reconnection with the 2.5bn, largely non-white, members of the Commonwealth – over what was viewed / portrayed as protectionist EU policies – and an immigration system that would put EU and Commonwealth citizens (of all colours) on a level playing field. I think that point is sometimes in danger of slipping down the Orwellian memory hole, so I mention it here and tiptoe away, back to my preferred position of non-combatant in this. Peace, love and respect to all of you. I hope everyone can play nicely. Back to the Guinness... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted November 8, 2019 Author Moderator Share Posted November 8, 2019 8 minutes ago, Five Ken McNaughts said: the campaign to leave the EU championed a reconnection with the 2.5bn, largely non-white, members of the Commonwealth I'm less than convinced. I accept some people see that as a good thing, but I detected just a hint of general anti-immigration, anti-immigrant messaging, 5Kens. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 8 minutes ago, Five Ken McNaughts said: I highlight your point, @NurembergVillan, only to make the minor observation that the campaign to leave the EU championed a reconnection with the 2.5bn, largely non-white, members of the Commonwealth – over what was viewed / portrayed as protectionist EU policies – and an immigration system that would put EU and Commonwealth citizens (of all colours) on a level playing field. I think that point is sometimes in danger of slipping down the Orwellian memory hole, I am sure that is exactly what the leaders of those wanting out of the EU were championing during the campaign. Also the Windrush scandal is hardly a good sell to those from the Commonwealth is it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 8, 2019 Moderator Share Posted November 8, 2019 33 minutes ago, Five Ken McNaughts said: only to make the minor observation that the campaign to leave the EU championed a reconnection with the 2.5bn, largely non-white, members of the Commonwealth – over what was viewed / portrayed as protectionist EU policies – and an immigration system that would put EU and Commonwealth citizens (of all colours) on a level playing field. Why would this have been the only truthful thing the Leave campaign managed to say during the whole campaign? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fightoffyour Posted November 8, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted November 8, 2019 3 hours ago, Five Ken McNaughts said: There are successful European nations inside the EU, and successful European nations outside the EU. But there are no (successful) nations that have left the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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