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Should I stay or should I go now - U.K. in/out of the EU (contd.)

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4 minutes ago, desensitized43 said:

 I think Corbyn wants to be out of the political structures that are telling him/us we can't nationalise everything, not the ecomonic structures, hence calling for "customs union/single market" etc.

This is undoubtedly true

Its also undoubtedly bollocks as has been proved time and time again

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4 minutes ago, blandy said:

If a cabinet minister wants to vote against their party policy, they have to resign their post, or be fired from it. Same applies to shadow cabinet in a normal world, doesn't it? Voting for the tories on a whipped vote is not a good look for a shadow cabinet member. Even wossername Hoey didn't do that, did she?

I'm not by the way arguing what Labour should or shouldn't have done to these people, just that what they did or didn't do is revealing of Corbyn's pro brexit desires.

... and if she voted that way on the Third Reading, I'm sure she would need to resign. 

Your last paragraph is baffling. You obviously can't divine any leader's 'true feelings' about an issue by the disciplinary matter of whether they have the whip withdrawn or not. To believe that, you would have to believe that there are no other possible considerations other than 'the leaders personal opinion of the broader topic' when making that decision, and there obviously are several other considerations. 

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2 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

Your last paragraph is baffling. You obviously can't divine any leader's 'true feelings' about an issue by the disciplinary matter of whether they have the whip withdrawn or not

I think it's reasonable to draw inference of a party leader's view from the way that they use discipline on some issues and not on others. More so when there's a pattern. It applies as much to Johnson as Corbyn. As an observer of what's gone on, you'd tend to think that in kicking out people who voted against his Brexit Deal thing, Johnson is pursuing a pro Brexit policy, no?

Corbyn, in repeatedly letting off people who vote for a pro Brexit thing, while not having done the same on other issues clearly to me, along with his own statements and actions, supports him being pro Brexit. I find it bizarre that anyone would even argue against that take. 

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9 minutes ago, blandy said:

I think it's reasonable to draw inference of a party leader's view from the way that they use discipline on some issues and not on others. More so when there's a pattern. It applies as much to Johnson as Corbyn. As an observer of what's gone on, you'd tend to think that in kicking out people who voted against his Brexit Deal thing, Johnson is pursuing a pro Brexit policy, no?

Corbyn, in repeatedly letting off people who vote for a pro Brexit thing, while not having done the same on other issues clearly to me, along with his own statements and actions, supports him being pro Brexit. I find it bizarre that anyone would even argue against that take. 

Johnson was put forward to party members by an absolute majority of Tory MPs just a few months ago. His position of strength vis-a-vis Tory party backbenchers is obviously not comparable with the famously dysfunctional relationship between Corbyn and Labour's backbenchers, and it's not surprising that Corbyn has to handle his parliamentary party with a more nuanced touch than Johnson does. 

There is also no 'pattern' that you are discerning here. As I said before, Labour haven't withdrawn the whip for the way an MP voted for multiple decades. Platt is a bit different, but she would clearly need to resign if she wanted to vote for Johnson's WA at Third Reading, and having never rebelled on a Brexit vote before, it's unlikely that she would do so anyway. 

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39 minutes ago, bickster said:

This is undoubtedly true

Its also undoubtedly bollocks as has been proved time and time again

Yes, whilst there's natural monopolies that could benefit from nationalisation (e.g. rail) it's clear that Labour would look to re-nationalise everything they could. It would be carried out on an insane scale and a lot of people will end up being very disappointed with the quality of service and level of taxation they will have to face to pay for it all (of course the govt would have to borrow substantial amounts for this scheme too which isn't exactly desirable).

Edited by Dr_Pangloss
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14 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

Yes, whilst there's natural monopolies that could benefit from nationalisation (e.g. rail) it's clear that Labour would look to re-nationalise everything they could. It would be carried out on an insane scale and a lot of people will end up being very disappointed with the quality of service and level of taxation they will have to face to pay for it all (of course the govt would have to borrow substantial amounts for this scheme too which isn't exactly desirable).

But at least when you're sat in Manchester Picadilly waiting for a train that's running 40 minutes late and when it arrives is overcrowded and you can't sit down - at least you can rest safe in the knowledge that the absurd amount you paid for a ticket is going back into maintaining and even maybe one day - improving the infrastructure.

Instead of it buying Richard Branson another wing on his island.

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2 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

There is also no 'pattern' that you are discerning here

Corbyn sacked people just for not abstaining (as he wanted them to) but voting for a Labour MP proposed amendment to keep the UK in the Single market. It wasn't that they voted with the tories, or against Labour - which happened this last time and was unpunished, they just voted for a labour motion.

There are other examples of a lack of even handedness favouring Brexity Labour MPs tory support, making a pattern.

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2 hours ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

Yes, whilst there's natural monopolies that could benefit from nationalisation (e.g. rail) it's clear that Labour would look to re-nationalise everything they could. It would be carried out on an insane scale and a lot of people will end up being very disappointed with the quality of service and level of taxation they will have to face to pay for it all (of course the govt would have to borrow substantial amounts for this scheme too which isn't exactly desirable).

For me it's more about the pointlessness of it, for the sake of it. Where it makes sense, fine and rail may be an example. But nationalising takes a huge amount of legislative and administrative time to implement each time. And to what benefit - if it's because (say) water prices are too high, or Directors are profiteering, then strngthen regulation on prices or pay - it's a much simpler and cost effective solution, leaving government time to do more meaningful stuff. Never mind the issue of money - pay below market rate for the shares and you're depleting the pension funds of normal working people.

Being in the EU doesn't even prevent nationalisation or public ownership anyway.

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The government just lost their vote on having a 12 Dec GE. :)

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55 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

You're going to want to put the sound on for this trip down memory lane:

 

I think the Tory party being finished swung it for a lot of people. 
It does seem rather fun that Johnson just can’t get anything done his way. Even though the Tories are the biggest party, they have pissed off everybody else that they can’t do anything. 
If only this was truly the end of the Tory party then we could enjoy it more; sadly people still want to vote for them!

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The natural party of government, stable sensible leadership. Of course people vote for them!

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10 minutes ago, cyrusr said:

I think the Tory party being finished swung it for a lot of people. 
It does seem rather fun that Johnson just can’t get anything done his way. Even though the Tories are the biggest party, they have pissed off everybody else that they can’t do anything. 
If only this was truly the end of the Tory party then we could enjoy it more; sadly people still want to vote for them!

Well 51% of the population will vote Tory now he has managed to destroy the Brexit party vote with his brexit at all costs policy, very clever . Labour may well finish with less of the vote than the Lib Dems.

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The thing is, those people should have focus groups, researchers, studies and hopefully, a bit of common sense. They are educated and successful.Why would you commit yourself to ridiculous statements such as "lying in a ditch" or "Tories will be finished". There should be an army of PR people standing behind them and schooling them on how to present themselves to the public. 

Absolute morons, the lot of them. I am confident there are better run student school council's than this government. Really poor, child like politics. 

And the funny thing is, they are still going to be the biggest party after the next election 😂 you couldn't make this up.

Edited by Mic09

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7 minutes ago, tinker said:

Well 51% of the population will vote Tory now he has managed to destroy the Brexit party vote with his brexit at all costs policy, very clever . Labour may well finish with less of the vote than the Lib Dems.

I’m not a gambling man, I’m happy to bet houses and donor organs that Labour get more of the vote than the Lib Dem’s.

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2 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

   "lying in a ditch" 

Strangely closer to the truth than the original.

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5 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Strangely closer to the truth than the original.

Damn you phone autocorrect!

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10 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

I’m not a gambling man, I’m happy to bet houses and donor organs that Labour get more of the vote than the Lib Dem’s.

On a single issue election Labour represent neither side. Definitely not leave and not clear enough on their remain stance.( More negotiating and another referendum isn't going to wash) I just can't see who will vote for them when there is such a strong feeling from both sides of the argument. 

As a remainer I wouldn't and 9/10 times I  would vote labour , I like his policies and he appears to be a good man, despite his bad press. His Brexit stance will not work to 90% of the electorate.

He should make it clear he would back another referendum on no deal or remain.

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