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The now-enacted will of (some of) the people


blandy

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16 minutes ago, bickster said:

Where do you get that impression from. Not once have I ever experienced that

Bit of a stereotype I guess.

Then again, Germany, France and UK have always been perceived as the 'big boys' in the EU.

UK has historically been more EU-sceptic, so it's reasonable to read the French as opposing by being a major force within an institution that UK wants to leave.

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38 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

UK has historically been more EU-sceptic, so it's reasonable to read the French as opposing by being a major force within an institution that UK wants to leave

Recent polling would suggest that France is actually more Euro sceptic than the UK

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Latest news;

The 27 states decided to leave the European Union (EU) to create a new entity, the European Association (EA)

They figured it would be easier and quicker than hang around to see what UK decides to do. 

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1 hour ago, blandy said:

I don't think he does. He and Labour would get thrashed. His long term plan has been for Brexit to happen and be a clusterpork and then Labour get elected on the back of the mess it creates. Nothing he's done in the past 3 years suggests otherwise. Nothing. It's about as unprincipled position as it's possible to have - let the tories wreck the country so you can benefit off the back of the damage they do.

They have consistently voted in favour of all motions to prevent a no deal and against any dogs dinner the Tories have attempted to serve up. I think that's something.

The main problem is here we are, after all this time and we still don't have any clue where the guy stands on the biggest issue of our time.

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32 minutes ago, desensitized43 said:

They have consistently voted in favour of all motions to prevent a no deal and against any dogs dinner the Tories have attempted to serve up. I think that's something.

The main problem is here we are, after all this time and we still don't have any clue where the guy stands on the biggest issue of our time.

Well kind of, yeah. I think we can (or at least I do) differentiate between what Labour has done and what he has done. He has been forced on multiple occasions to go along with what smarter, wiser Labour politicians have planend and drawn up - Yvette Cooper, Kier Starmer etc, or with party policy.

When it comes to areas where what he does are telling, all the telling is that he wants leave. Latest example was just last week  - 7 days ago multiple labour MPs voted for the Tories, including (I think) one or two that are in the shadow cabinet. Action taken by Corbyn....nothing. Might as well give them all carte blanche.

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10 minutes ago, blandy said:

Well kind of, yeah. I think we can (or at least I do) differentiate between what Labour has done and what he has done. He has been forced on multiple occasions to go along with what smarter, wiser Labour politicians have planend and drawn up - Yvette Cooper, Kier Starmer etc, or with party policy.

When it comes to areas where what he does are telling, all the telling is that he wants leave. Latest example was just last week  - 7 days ago multiple labour MPs voted for the Tories, including (I think) one or two that are in the shadow cabinet. Action taken by Corbyn....nothing. Might as well give them all carte blanche.

And given what the detail says about workers rights and the environment...

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5 minutes ago, blandy said:

When it comes to areas where what he does are telling, all the telling is that he wants leave. Latest example was just last week  - 7 days ago multiple labour MPs voted for the Tories, including (I think) one or two that are in the shadow cabinet. Action taken by Corbyn....nothing. Might as well give them all carte blanche.

One was in the shadow Cabinet, Jo Platt. 

It is probably worth pointing out here that no Labour MP has had the whip withdrawn (which is the only actual sanction for backbenchers) for voting against the whip since, I believe, the early 1960s. Let's not pretend that that would have been a natural or usual response. It was also only the Second Reading, and there was a clear understanding that particularly 'Leave-y' Labour MPs could use the opportunity to chalk up a 'vote for Brexit' to tell their constituents about later. The Third Reading will/would obviously be whipped much harder. 

Finally, I think it's worth pointing out that most of those criticising the leadership for not withdrawing the whip over this vote are also the same people who have spent years going on about the leadership's 'intolerance of dissent', 'Stalinism', 'it's supposed to be a broad church' etc, which suggests a certain lack of consistency here. 

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11 minutes ago, blandy said:

Well kind of, yeah. I think we can (or at least I do) differentiate between what Labour has done and what he has done. He has been forced on multiple occasions to go along with what smarter, wiser Labour politicians have planend and drawn up - Yvette Cooper, Kier Starmer etc, or with party policy.

When it comes to areas where what he does are telling, all the telling is that he wants leave. Latest example was just last week  - 7 days ago multiple labour MPs voted for the Tories, including (I think) one or two that are in the shadow cabinet. Action taken by Corbyn....nothing. Might as well give them all carte blanche.

I get what you're saying. As the leader of the opposition he should be tabling these motions himself rather than relying on his back benches to make the moves.

I agree about the "rebel" labour MP's. Personally I think there are a number of them who are basically no longer Labour party MP's (I'm looking at Hoey, Flint etc). I think a number of Labour MP's would like them out now but when you look at what Johnson did, you can argue that without the whip those MP's have been more free to express their opinions and "make trouble". He can't control them all the time but he can for 70-80% of the time.

There's no question Corbyn wants to leave. There are interviews with him during the referendum on the Lisbon Treaty in Ireland where he's pretty much telling them he doesn't like the EU, but I don't think he wants no deal. Even a leftist as ideologically driven as Corbyn can see the folly in tearing up your international trade policy overnight. The irony is that it's the "party of business" who want to do this. I think Corbyn wants to be out of the political structures that are telling him/us we can't nationalise everything, not the ecomonic structures, hence calling for "customs union/single market" etc.

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2 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

One was in the shadow Cabinet, Jo Platt. 

It is probably worth pointing out here that no Labour MP has had the whip withdrawn (which is the only actual sanction for backbenchers) for voting against the whip since, I believe, the early 1960s. Let's not pretend that that would have been a natural or usual response. It was also only the Second Reading, and there was a clear understanding that particularly 'Leave-y' Labour MPs could use the opportunity to chalk up a 'vote for Brexit' to tell their constituents about later. The Third Reading will/would obviously be whipped much harder. 

Finally, I think it's worth pointing out that most of those criticising the leadership for not withdrawing the whip over this vote are also the same people who have spent years going on about the leadership's 'intolerance of dissent', 'Stalinism', 'it's supposed to be a broad church' etc, which suggests a certain lack of consistency here. 

If a cabinet minister wants to vote against their party policy, they have to resign their post, or be fired from it. Same applies to shadow cabinet in a normal world, doesn't it? Voting for the tories on a whipped vote is not a good look for a shadow cabinet member. Even wossername Hoey didn't do that, did she?

I'm not by the way arguing what Labour should or shouldn't have done to these people, just that what they did or didn't do is revealing of Corbyn's pro brexit desires.

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