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Should I stay or should I go now - U.K. in/out of the EU (contd.)

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10 minutes ago, bickster said:

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Two complete idiots on either side, neither want to be in the EU. With remain being the most important issue bar none for me I'm totally alienated and I'd imagine there's many out there who feel the same.

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Just now, Dr_Pangloss said:

Two complete idiots on either side, neither want to be in the EU. With remain being the most important issue bar none for me I'm totally alienated and I'd imagine there's many out there who feel the same.

If I was put before a firing squad where I had to make the binary choice or die, I'd pick Corbyn but only then

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11 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I doubt that many people want this man as our leader but what’s the alternative? Jeremy Corbyn?

Without the protections of being in the EU life under a Johnson led Tory government with the likes of Raab, Mogg, Leadsom is not going to pretty for most of us and will certainly result in life becoming far worse for those already with the least. Faced with that I'd have no hesitation taking my chances under a Corbyn government.

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20 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

I love the 'just get on with it' attitude that is so prevalent among the legions of simpletons that live in this country. Doesn't matter if this deal is the worst one yet, 'just get on with it, I'm sick of it now, I don't care about the detail, I don't care about how this deal will make us all poorer, just get it done'. I'm pretty much ashamed of this country at this stage.

Ken Clarke said in the commons yesterday that this is a bad deal but that he'll vote for it. Amber Ruud on tv this morning said it is worse than Mays deal but that she'll vote for it and there are plenty more who know this is going to be crap for the country but will vote it through. These people are elected to ensure that our best interests are served and yet it has now become acceptable and pretty much unchallenged that we have MP's voting for something that they know will have a detrimental affect for years on the vast majority of people and for many a devastating one. It so frustrating watching it all play out.

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3 hours ago, ml1dch said:

Given those are not changes that have been agreed by the EU, would the Commons passing such an amendment be all that different to the Brady Amendment nonsense of May's DWA?

I don't *think* so, as the former would only place requirements on the UK government and the latter would formalise the backstop arrangement from May's deal. However, I happily admit I'm no expert.

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12 hours ago, ml1dch said:

It's weird. It's almost as if ripping up the economic and legal order of the country, in a way that half the people who live there don't want isn't a straightforward, overnight process.

That wasn't the point I was making. 

The childish, churlish and arrogant behaviour of elected officials is what has got my proverbial goat. Behaviour that would never be tolerated in any other profession 

Edited by Xela

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59 minutes ago, bickster said:

If I was put before a firing squad where I had to make the binary choice or die, I'd pick Corbyn but only then

I knew you were a secret Corbyn supporter deep down :D

 

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Apparently an amendment will be moved net week that calls for a referendum on Johnsons deal vs Remain and Keir Starmer has confirmed that Labour will back it. Anyone think there are likely to be enough in parliament who will back this? 

I just couldn't see how Johnsons deal could win against remain as the bullshit presented in the last referendum wouldn't be so easy to put out given that we'd know what kind of Brexit we were getting.

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12 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

Apparently an amendment will be moved net week that calls for a referendum on Johnsons deal vs Remain and Keir Starmer has confirmed that Labour will back it. Anyone think there are likely to be enough in parliament who will back this? 

At this stage, I'd be amazed. A couple of dozen Labour would rebel and no more than three or four rebel Tories would back it.

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23 minutes ago, Xela said:

The childish, churlish and arrogant behaviour of elected officials is what has got my proverbial goat. Behaviour that would never be tolerated in any other profession 

For example? 

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6 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

Apparently an amendment will be moved net week that calls for a referendum on Johnsons deal vs Remain and Keir Starmer has confirmed that Labour will back it. Anyone think there are likely to be enough in parliament who will back this? 

I just couldn't see how Johnsons deal could win against remain as the bullshit presented in the last referendum wouldn't be so easy to put out given that we'd know what kind of Brexit we were getting.

After predicting Letwin would fail i think I’ll stay out the prediction game :)

Did Starmer in¬†his¬†interview also refer¬†to a ‚Äúbetter deal that could be secured‚ÄĚ ¬†?

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Just now, tonyh29 said:

After predicting Letwin would fail i think I’ll stay out the prediction game :)

Did Starmer in¬†his¬†interview also refer¬†to a ‚Äúbetter deal that could be secured‚ÄĚ ¬†?

I haven't seen his interview in fairness it was just something that I'd seen on twitter. I am sure an amendment will be moved next week though in regards a referendum and I'd imagine in terms of a referendum it is time for Labour to either shit or completely get off the pot as that ship will have sailed.

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1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

I wouldn’t want either as the leader. In a straight binary choice between the two, I can’t get my head around people that would choose Johnson. 

 

Would anyone actually vote Tory because of Johnson though?   I wouldn’t want either him or Corbyn as PM. Any vote would be based on party manifesto. Not these two clowns.

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4 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

Did Starmer in¬†his¬†interview also refer¬†to a ‚Äúbetter deal that could be secured‚ÄĚ ¬†?

"Better" of course is in the eye of the beholder. 

As far as Labour are concerned, an extremely close relationship is better than what is currently agreed, and something that would be available. 

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11 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

At this stage, I'd be amazed. A couple of dozen Labour would rebel and no more than three or four rebel Tories would back it.

You could well be right but that is infuriating as there are comfortably 400+ MP's who openly acknowledge this is a poor deal yet we have a lot of Tories who acknowledge that and a handful of Labour who would still vote it though, knowing the misery it is likely to reap on a lot of people, rather than put it back to the people. 

If they aren't comfortable opposing the deal as their constituents voted to leave then surely another referendum attached to Johnson's deal gives them a get of jail card as they can say I backed the deal but it is now for the country to decide if it is better than us staying in the EU.

Edited by markavfc40

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I don't get involved on here as I can get very political. An the fact some of you claim Coybyn would be better than what we have, reiterates the fact why I should stay out.

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1 minute ago, foreveryoung said:

I don't get involved on here as I can get very political. An the fact some of you claim Coybyn would be better than what we have, reiterates the fact why I should stay out.

Looks like you didn't get involved again

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33 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

I knew you were a secret Corbyn supporter deep down :D

 

In a game of celebrity death match I'd go a double hammer blow ded heat

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5 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

You could well be right but that is infuriating as there are comfortably 400+ MP's who openly acknowledge this is a poor deal yet we have a lot of Tories who acknowledge that and a handful of Labour who would still vote it though, knowing the misery it is likely to reap on a lot of people, rather than put it back to the people. 

If they aren't comfortable opposing the deal as their constituents voted to leave then surely another referendum attached to Johnson's deal gives them a get of jail card as they can say I backed the deal but it is now for the country to decide if it is better than us staying in the EU.

I think a second referendum is probably the least bad option, but I come back to my comments above about complexity, and whose responsibility it is. I can only assume that the Johnson deal would require more than one page of A4, and would require some detailed scrutiny by people who know what they are talking about, rather than Sharon from Stoke (or for that matter, Mike from Leeds), who is more likely to vote on 'gut feeling'. These things should not be decided by 'gut feeling'. 

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