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blandy

Should I stay or should I go now - U.K. in/out of the EU (contd.)

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28 minutes ago, blandy said:

I'm not saying this is my thinking, but it's easy to follow the logic about Corbyn not getting in (I agree, he won't) and take that on to..."well, we're gonna get battered next election, but my Leave voting place, that voted me in will see me supporting Leave and spare me and have at least one more Labour MP next time". And of course they can square that off with "why should I support that arse, Corbyn and his incompetent approach to all this, when I can legitimately claim to be representing my constituents who want to leave"

In part it makes sense, doesn't it, if if we might think that they should actually put what's best for the UK first.

I’ve just written the most long winded, shitty analogy possible to how I see this and not been able to bring myself to post it.

Do you mean it makes sense from a careerist point of view or to keep themselves in a position they can have a positive influence in the future?

The latter makes no sense at all as they will be signing up to undermine workers rights on a huge scale so that they may be in a position to vote for an extra ten p on the minimum wage in the future*. From a career point of view I get it, but it makes me wonder why they joined a party that is supposed to empower the working class in the first place.

*Potentially in a scenario where a GE is called and Boris gets a majority for ‘succeeding’

Edited by Sam-AVFC
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Can I just clarify my original question to @StefanAVFC was because I though he was referring to the governments behaviour of the last two weeks for the reason why he is seriously considering his Polish citizenship. i.e. wants nothing to do with England and it’s government.

 I’ve since realised (thanks @ml1dch) that he was talking about sorting it out from a legal viewpoint and to be certain of his residential status.

Apologies for misunderstanding. 

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1 hour ago, blandy said:

I'm not saying this is my thinking, but it's easy to follow the logic about Corbyn not getting in (I agree, he won't) and take that on to..."well, we're gonna get battered next election, but my Leave voting place, that voted me in will see me supporting Leave and spare me and have at least one more Labour MP next time". And of course they can square that off with "why should I support that arse, Corbyn and his incompetent approach to all this, when I can legitimately claim to be representing my constituents who want to leave"

In part it makes sense, doesn't it, if if we might think that they should actually put what's best for the UK first.

I get that some may well be looking at the bigger picture for themselves and perhaps the party in wanting to ensure if they are in a leave voting seat that they want to be seen to be supporting leave and therefore give themselves a better chance of being reelected.

Refusing to sign up to this deal doesn't make them anti Brexit or mean they are going against their constituents though does it. It is a diabolical deal on many levels but in terms of the people most Labour MP's represent it opens up the possibility of having huge negative consequences. Just as many rabidly anti EU MP's voted down Mays deal as it wasn't what they saw as a good deal for those they represent (in fairness most of them did it for self serving reasons) by doing so didn't make them anti leave neither should any MP be afraid to say "my constituents voted to leave but I can't support a deal that I know will make them much worse off". That has to be the right thing to do surely regardless of any potential consequences for them down the line.

Edited by markavfc40
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44 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said:

Do you mean it makes sense from a careerist point of view

Basically, yes. And that there is a way they can kind of excuse themselves for doing that, to salve their consciences.

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13 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

I get that some may well be looking at the bigger picture for themselves and perhaps the party in wanting to ensure if they are in a leaving voting seat that they want to be seen to be supporting leave and therefore give themselves a better chance of being reelected.

Refusing to sign up to this deal doesn't make them anti Brexit or mean they are going against their constituents though does it. It is a diabolical deal on many levels but in terms of the people most Labour MP's represent it opens up the possibility of having huge negative consequences. Just as many rabidly anti EU MP's voted down Mays deal as it wasn't what they saw as a good deal for those they represent (in fairness most of them did it for self serving reasons) by doing so didn't make them anti leave neither should any MP be afraid to say "my constituents voted to leave but I can't support a deal that I know will make them much worse off". That has to be the right thing to do surely regardless of any potential consequences for them down the line.

Exactly. Like I said, my thinking is more aligned with yours, I was trying to get across that there is a logical way that MPs could justify to themselves, or excuse themselves for doing the "keep my job" thing, despite it being against the interests of the UK.

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1 hour ago, markavfc40 said:

True maybe I should have said partly off the back of Labour votes.

I can see why a Tory would have nothing against a deal that allows the government to shred workers rights and social and environmental protections it is in the DNA of most of them . For a Labour MP to support such a deal though is shameful.

This must be a new one. I get that Labour / EU are all workers rights, nurses, homeless, foodbanks, education etc, but I've never heard they were the saviour of the planet before.

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11 minutes ago, colhint said:

This must be a new one. I get that Labour / EU are all workers rights, nurses, homeless, foodbanks, education etc, but I've never heard they were the saviour of the planet before.

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I wouldn't be switching.

I'd be having dual-nationality.

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41 minutes ago, colhint said:

This must be a new one. I get that Labour / EU are all workers rights, nurses, homeless, foodbanks, education etc, but I've never heard they were the saviour of the planet before.

From what you quoted you still haven’t.

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1 hour ago, Sam-AVFC said:

From a career point of view I get it, but it makes me wonder why they joined a party that is supposed to empower the working class in the first place.

Well, you can want a career in politics and choose the party which at that moment seems likely to offer good opportunities (Blair), or you can get involved in politics because you care about it, and may find yourself in a position you didn't envisage and didn't especially seek (Corbyn).

The former group really don't care about empowering the working class.  It's never been an issue for them, it's not a part of their life, they're not people they live among or meet other than fleetingly.

Though there are also actual working class careerists, as well.  Their loyalty to working class issues is strained, when it conflicts with personal advancement.

 

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48 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said:

From what you quoted you still haven’t.

But It does seem to imply that Tories  are against it, don't you think? Given that he suggested it's in their DNA to vote against the environment.

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6 hours ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said:

Except of course in Poland, that doesn't recognise dual-nationality.

They recognise the Polish citizenship which the important bit. 

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Corbyn is awful,  big political points with some weight fall flat becasue of his delivery.

Priti Patel is openly laughing at him now,  really funny.

 

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They are letting the little Scottish snp fella have a little go now,  I am going to walk the dog now then.

I will then argue with myself on previous my post's from today 🙂

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5 minutes ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said:

Corbyn is awful,  big political points with some weight fall flat becasue of his delivery.

Priti Patel is openly laughing at him now,  really funny.

 

I'd say the awful person in this scenario is Patel. As you say Corbyn is making some very good points on this deal that will have a detrimental impact on the vast majority of us and Patel knows that and shows contempt for it by openly laughing.

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