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The now-enacted will of (some of) the people


blandy

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5 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

Haven't they?

Not sure, hence asking.  Are they in a position to be negotiating our exit?  Did they have any influence on the referendum?  Have they made an absolute arse of Brexit?  Is that even possible for them?

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12 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

I didn't say being in the EU is like being a slave. I used it as a comparison.

But you did, you literally did, go back and read your own words. Unless the ‘its’ at the start of the sentence was referencing something else?

In fact, you actually admit you did in the second sentence. You and me, we clearly use language and words very differently.

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2 minutes ago, bobzy said:

Not sure, hence asking.  Are they in a position to be negotiating our exit?  Did they have any influence on the referendum?  Have they made an absolute arse of Brexit?  Is that even possible for them?

In a democracy, the opposition's responsibility is to create an alternative for the government's policy.

3 years down the line and we don't even know if they want to leave or not. 

That's their part. They messed up their part of the show, much like Tories messed up theirs.

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Just now, chrisp65 said:

But you did, you literally did, go back and read your own words. Unless the ‘its’ at the start of the sentence was referencing something else?

In fact, you actually admit you did in the second sentence. You and me, we clearly use language and words very differently.

Maybe it's the fact English isn't my first language. But you can actually compare apples and oranges - two totally different things. I have than made a better analogy in order to make myself clearer.

Is that better?

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30 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

I didn't say being in the EU is like being a slave. I used it as a comparison.

If you prefer, it's like living with parents when you are 30. Yeah, they look after you, and you don't know what it might be like if you leave. Some people want to leave, other don't.

Except your parents are nice to you, even if they ask you to pay a relatively small amount of rent.  They help keep the place safe and tidy.  There's never any shit food in the fridge - chlorinated chicken or hormone-infused beef.  They don't boss you around, but you have a shared set of house rules that you get a say in.  You also get to veto them inviting anyone else to stay.  And you're not really in their house, you're in a purpose built gaff at the bottom of a massive garden, the other side of a stream.  In all, whilst you can always find something that could be better, it's a good life.

If you move out people will definitely die (some of whom you may know, the majority just ordinary people who are a bit skint or poorly), there's a likelihood it'll be a while before you eat your favourite dinner, and any remotely positive outcome is arguable at best.  Unless you're a hedge fund billionaire or one of the 25 companies that own 65% of the fishing industry that makes up 0.1% of our economy.

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2 hours ago, Mic09 said:

Some brexiteers might believe that things might not be better, but it's the principle of "freedom" and "sovereignity" that is the aim in itself. 

It's a bit like being a slave. You are fed, have a roof over your head, but you are not free. Once you become free, there is no guarantee of shelter, food or work. But it's the principle of freedom.

Brexit is an emotional, principle based argument.

Remain is the economical arguement.

Take your pick.

It's not slavery in the slightest. It's not even close to slavery. We're part of a supranational trading bloc where we've pooled our regulations to standardise goods across the bloc allowing us to negotiate as a larger bloc with larger countries on better/more equal terms.

I assume when you refer to slavery you're not talking about 19th century African amaerican slavery... Puppet or client states is a better term? Even then its a stretch. I don't like the term vassal as that's very 19th century and I'm not Jacob Rees-Mogg.

When people talk about slave or vassals or client states is cheapens the leave argument intellectually. Much like going to the "you're a nazi" argument on the remain side. It doesn't mean anything and it's frankly rediculous.

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39 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

In a democracy, the opposition's responsibility is to create an alternative for the government's policy.

3 years down the line and we don't even know if they want to leave or not. 

That's their part. They messed up their part of the show, much like Tories messed up theirs.

That's all fine - but how is it making an absolute arse of Brexit?  There's no input at all, even if their flip-flopping stance is seen as weak, they aren't impacting what is actually being negotiated, are they?  I might be wrong.  It seems harsh to swipe at that party when they don't have an actual input to negotiations.

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37 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

Maybe it's the fact English isn't my first language. But you can actually compare apples and oranges - two totally different things. I have than made a better analogy in order to make myself clearer.

Is that better?

Ok, that’s cool. I’d asked you previously something along the lines of were you in the UK because I suspected there was a language thing going on. In which case, I absolutely salute you conversing in something other than you first language. All good.

Incidentally, my first language is slightly confused sarcastic bollocks.

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30 minutes ago, desensitized43 said:

It's not slavery in the slightest. It's not even close to slavery. We're part of a supranational trading bloc where we've pooled our regulations to standardise goods across the bloc allowing us to negotiate as a larger bloc with larger countries on better/more equal terms.

I assume when you refer to slavery you're not talking about 19th century African amaerican slavery... Puppet or client states is a better term? Even then its a stretch. I don't like the term vassal as that's very 19th century and I'm not Jacob Rees-Mogg.

When people talk about slave or vassals or client states is cheapens the leave argument intellectually. Much like going to the "you're a nazi" argument on the remain side. It doesn't mean anything and it's frankly rediculous.

Again - rectified the argument so it's more fitting, and I apologise for any misunderstanding!

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30 minutes ago, bobzy said:

That's all fine - but how is it making an absolute arse of Brexit?  There's no input at all, even if their flip-flopping stance is seen as weak, they aren't impacting what is actually being negotiated, are they?  I might be wrong.  It seems harsh to swipe at that party when they don't have an actual input to negotiations.

I guess they didn't have an effect on Brexit negotiations, but they have a big effect on the fact that they have no reasonable policy to counter the shit show at no.10.

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6 hours ago, Mic09 said:

I didn't say being in the EU is like being a slave. I used it as a comparison.

If you prefer, it's like living with parents when you are 30. Yeah, they look after you, and you don't know what it might be like if you leave. Some people want to leave, other don't.

This is the crux of where the misunderstanding on the EU happens. 

Many people in the UK see the EU as a separate entity, ruling over the UK, and feel affronted by that idea. 

The realty is that the EU is the UK. In your scenario the UK is the parent (one of 27) and is part of the decision making in the household. 

Brexit is a divorce, not a child leaving the family house. 

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1 hour ago, LondonLax said:

This is the crux of where the misunderstanding on the EU happens. 

Many people in the UK see the EU as a separate entity, ruling over the UK, and feel affronted by that idea. 

The realty is that the EU is the UK. In your scenario the UK is the parent (one of 27) and is part of the decision making in the household. 

Brexit is a divorce, not a child leaving the family house. 

Unfortunately it is a loveless marriage. The UK feels like their partner just doesn't listen anymore. "When was the last time we did what I (the UK) actually want?"

The fact is we just don't want the same things anymore. Single currency? No. Federal Taxation? No. EU Army? No. Further expansion whilst retaining freedom of movement? No. Closer integration? No. The list goes on.

As hard as it is, probably best to go our separate ways and wish each other all the best before things turn really sour. I mean sure, I know you've always been the major breadwinner and things are going to be tough at first...but it will be better for both of us in the long run.

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2 minutes ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said:

Unfortunately it is a loveless marriage. The UK feels like their partner just doesn't listen anymore. "When was the last time we did what I (the UK) actually want?"

The fact is we just don't want the same things anymore. Single currency? No. Federal Taxation? No. EU Army? No. Further expansion whilst retaining freedom of movement? No. Closer integration? No. The list goes on.

As hard as it is, probably best to go our separate ways and wish each other all the best before things turn really sour. I mean sure, I know you've always been the major breadwinner and things are going to be tough at first...but it will be better for both of us in the long run.

The UK has total control over all those things you say you don’t want for the EU. If (theoretically) the 26 other nations wanted those things and the UK didn’t there is nothing the 26 can do about it, the UK can veto until the cows come home.

The UK currently has the power to make the EU stay exactly as it is now, and the power to influence its direction in the future. 

You lose all that power once you leave. 

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2 hours ago, LondonLax said:

This is the crux of where the misunderstanding on the EU happens. 

Many people in the UK see the EU as a separate entity, ruling over the UK, and feel affronted by that idea. 

The realty is that the EU is the UK. In your scenario the UK is the parent (one of 27) and is part of the decision making in the household. 

Brexit is a divorce, not a child leaving the family house. 

That's not the point.

When you live with your parents, you still have decision making powers. You can veto what's for dinner and when you go shopping you have your own input into what's coming into the household.

But what if you want to paint your walls green and your mum says no? 

You have decision making power. But you are still dependent on others around you. You are fed and given a roof over your head. But, it's not 'your' house.

I'm not saying I agree with this, but I see that as the reason why many would want to leave.

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1 hour ago, LondonLax said:

The UK has total control over all those things you say you don’t want for the EU. If (theoretically) the 26 other nations wanted those things and the UK didn’t there is nothing the 26 can do about it, the UK can veto until the cows come home.

The UK currently has the power to make the EU stay exactly as it is now, and the power to influence its direction in the future. 

You lose all that power once you leave. 

To be fair, that doesn't particularly counter his point.

If the other 27 do have a fixed plan on the future and they are being held back by an obstinate anchor who refuses to engage then that's not a sustainable relationship.

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10 hours ago, bobzy said:

Not sure, hence asking.  Are they in a position to be negotiating our exit?  Did they have any influence on the referendum?  Have they made an absolute arse of Brexit?  Is that even possible for them?

I could go into greater detail, but basically from whipping to support triggering A50, and even before that, on the day of the ref result, when Corbyn practically burst with keenness to trigger it that day, Labour has been horrendously wrong and error prone time and time again. Better opposition has come from Tory rebels than labour’s leadership.

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35 minutes ago, blandy said:

I could go into greater detail, but basically from whipping to support triggering A50, and even before that, on the day of the ref result, when Corbyn practically burst with keenness to trigger it that day, Labour has been horrendously wrong and error prone time and time again. Better opposition has come from Tory rebels than labour’s leadership.

I guess there is a better place for a wider political debate, but are the British voters unable to provide us with a better alternative?

Government is very poor in it's actions. But who the heck is an average voter supposed to back in order to have any sort of an effect on this mess? Lib Dems? 

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