The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[ChrisVillan]

Do they all burst or just the ones that have the thinnest membranes?

[WhatAboutTheFinish]

14 minutes ago, blandy said:

Article 50 though, doesn't at all say that "if you can't agree a deal you leave without one". What it says is

A little selective with your quoting. From your own link;

Quote

The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

 

[jackbauer24]

Again, forget the blame game. Not interested in how we got here now, it's a lesson but it's not a solution to this situation.

Even if we assume all Remainers are terrified of nothing and we'll be fine, it STILL does not explain what is going to be better. What do leavers think will get BETTER?! The focus seems to be on diminishing fear rather than highlighting a positive.

All future is a BELIEF based on your view. Remainers believe bad things, Leavers seem to simply believe it won't be SO bad. Where is the upside?

And treating this all as a game is why we're in a mess. Suggesting there is a parallel to a football match is ridiculous. Winning and losing should not be the outcome of any election. It gives an indication of the strongest feeling but is not about completely ignoring the 'losing' side. Otherwise we wouldn't have a parliament for five years, just the winners dictating policy without reproach. Furthermore, elections (and football matches!) are replayed every so often to ensure that everyone still agrees with the idea. Where this one time only thing came from I have no idea. Add in the fact it's openly accepted that lies were told, difficulties were discovered and the world has changed why wouldn't a normal person want to check just before shutting the door?

I'm just waiting for a single leaver to engage in conversation other than "you lost, get over it". Engage in discussion, try to unite split families, friends and communities. Try to calm those you believe are overreacting. Even if you're 100% right, why would you not want to help rather than gloat? Unfortunately I suspect I know why this isn't possible, but I'd LOVE to be proven wrong. Engage.

[chrisp65]

1 hour ago, imavillan said:

 

the same as not joining the euro....

 

a bunch of remainers who actually voted to trigger article 50 which states if we cant agree a deal we leave without a deal......laughable

we have people in this country who are not willing to accept a democratic vote because they did not like the result, simple as that.

the problem is with any contest you have to be able to accept defeat. Remainers and the institution have not accepted defeat. Simple as that.

 

we are all going to fall off a cliff and disappear if we leave...are we

crikey, talk about shitting your pants....the world will keep turning....the country will survive

accept the vote accept the result....but no, remainers cant and wont

 

1.0 eh? I appear to have missed the 1000 pages on the euro.

 

2.0 I guess the need to stick by referendum results from years ago excludes the 1975 referendum to remain in?

 

3.0 absolute bollocks lad

 

4.0 you forgot to reference the war

[Seat68]

Waterloo how does it feel etc. 

[ml1dch]

3 minutes ago, Seat68 said:

Waterloo how does it feel etc. 

I very much feel that the history book on the shelf is always repeating itself.

[Mic09]

21 minutes ago, jackbauer24 said:

Even if we assume all Remainers are terrified of nothing and we'll be fine, it STILL does not explain what is going to be better. What do leavers think will get BETTER?! The focus seems to be on diminishing fear rather than highlighting a positive.

All future is a BELIEF based on your view. Remainers believe bad things, Leavers seem to simply believe it won't be SO bad. Where is the upside?

 

Some brexiteers might believe that things might not be better, but it's the principle of "freedom" and "sovereignity" that is the aim in itself. 

It's a bit like being a slave. You are fed, have a roof over your head, but you are not free. Once you become free, there is no guarantee of shelter, food or work. But it's the principle of freedom.

Brexit is an emotional, principle based argument.

Remain is the economical arguement.

Take your pick.

[Mic09]

1 hour ago, blandy said:

Like most posts on Brexit, there's a mixture of truth, sound opinion and less sound content in what you've written (mine are no doubt the same).

You're dead right that parliament voted to trigger article 50 way back. That was a massive mistake (the timing, not the fact they did) because they did so before anyone had any idea what we (the UK) actually wanted - there were all kinds of views - be like Norway, be like Switzerland, be like Canada, stay in the CU and SM, leave the CU, but stay in the SM and so on. Parliament should have collectively worked out what we wanted, and then triggered A50.

Article 50 though, doesn't at all say that "if you can't agree a deal you leave without one". What it says is

And indeed they did exactly that. That was May's deal. Parliament then (rightly) said "that's a terrible deal, it's worse than remaining" and that was people like Rees Mogg and Johnson and so on, who were like you, desperate to leave. People who voted remain felt the same. It's why the ERG Brexit extremists voted against it.

Since way back, there's been an election. Both Labour and the tories promised in their manifestos to leave with a deal. In the General election (democracy in action) people voted on the promise to leave with a deal (and everything else they all said. This re-inforced the "No deal was not what was promised" to the likes of us lot.

We will lose some freedoms (and theoretically gain others) if we leave. Overall the country will by all measures and all assessments be worse off if we leave, however we do it. We're already worse off, though not as much as the remainers said at the time. People might think "it's worth it" or that "it's not worth it" - that's fine.

In an ideal world Parliament would have sorted out, collectively, how to enact the narrow vote to leave, and then gone ahead and tried to get that. Instead May decided her personal version of what she wanted, and pursued that, despite all the objections of pretty much everyone else. And so here we are.

Fustercluck, isn't it?

 

Have I just read the first reasonable post in the thread? 

[bickster]

17 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

Some brexiteers might believe that things might not be better, but it's the principle of "freedom" and "sovereignity" that is the aim in itself. 

It's a bit like being a slave. You are fed, have a roof over your head, but you are not free. Once you become free, there is no guarantee of shelter, food or work. But it's the principle of freedom.

Brexit is an emotional, principle based argument.

Remain is the economical arguement.

Take your pick.

Oh Freedom... well all I see is the EU giving me more freedom and UK governments of either ilk taking them away

[ml1dch]

24 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

Brexit is an emotional, principle based argument.

Remain is the economical arguement.

Only if those are your* particular emotions and principles. 

If I say that I am happy sacrificing economic benefit for the cause of continent-wide stability, peace and the longest time in recorded history without a military conflict between Western European countries, are those emotions and principles not valid?

People can find fault with those principles and criticise their veracity as they see fit, but they are no less flimsy than the ardent sovereignist who wants the right to be completely independent, and finds that he just ends up following the rules he'd be following anyway because they are the rules the rest of the world is following. 

*your in the indirect sense

Edited September 19, 2019 by ml1dch

[Mic09]

12 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

Only if those are your* particular emotions and principles. 

If I say that I am happy sacrificing economic benefit for the cause of continent-wide stability, peace and the longest time in recorded history without a military conflict between Western European countries, are those emotions and principles not valid?

People can find fault with those principles and criticise their veracity as they see fit, but they are no less flimsy than the ardent sovereignist who wants the right to be completely independent, and finds that he just ends up following the rules he'd be following anyway because they are the rules the rest of the world is following. 

*your in the indirect sense

Good point.

[chrisp65]

35 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

Some brexiteers might believe that things might not be better, but it's the principle of "freedom" and "sovereignity" that is the aim in itself. 

It's a bit like being a slave. You are fed, have a roof over your head, but you are not free. Once you become free, there is no guarantee of shelter, food or work. But it's the principle of freedom.

Brexit is an emotional, principle based argument.

Remain is the economical arguement.

Take your pick.

Slave master Johnson has already said he will not allow the slaves in Scotland their freedom from colonial oppression. 

Slaves.

ffs only minutes ago the remainers were accused of hyperbole and now you’re comparing membership of the EU with actual slavery.

 

[StefanAVFC]

Really good addition to the debate there. Arguing against points no one made and reacting with a laughing face to reasonable replies.

[blandy]

1 hour ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said:

A little selective with your quoting. From your own link;

Not intentionally so. A50 requires an agreement to be concluded. No ifs, buts, or maybes.

You're right that if one isn't concluded, a breach of what A50 requires, then "No deal" as people call it happens. But that isn't really "no deal" because the very first thing that then has to happen for the world to function is "deal(s)" need to be agreed. It just means that we have less leverage to get better deals.

[blandy]

53 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

Have I just read the first reasonable post in the thread? 

Thanks , but no, not by a long way. People with all kinds of views have posted loads of "reasonable" stuff in this thread. From @Awol who wants to leave, @snowychap who's been good with the Parliamentary stuff in particular, to pick out just two from many and loads of good points made by various perspectives of people. Again. deliberately not picking a side, @tonyh29, @chrisp65 my buddy @bickster and loads more (sorry, an awards thing is on the radio). 

[Mic09]

27 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Slave master Johnson has already said he will not allow the slaves in Scotland their freedom from colonial oppression. 

Slaves.

ffs only minutes ago the remainers were accused of hyperbole and now you’re comparing membership of the EU with actual slavery.

 

I didn't say being in the EU is like being a slave. I used it as a comparison.

If you prefer, it's like living with parents when you are 30. Yeah, they look after you, and you don't know what it might be like if you leave. Some people want to leave, other don't.

[blandy]

1 hour ago, Mic09 said:

Brexit is an emotional, principle based argument.

Remain is the economical arguement.

I dunno, personally. I mean I understand (appreciate) that some leave people see it as a principle about "Freedom and Sovereignty" but I'm buggered if I can actually understand what that actually means in practice. No one has ever explained it to me in a way that they can demonstrate is different in reality.

Remain, economical, yes, for sure.that's part of it, and what the politicians, economists, business people etc. go on about, but it doesn't remotely explain the mass rally of folk in London and elsewhere  - that was all about emotion and principle for them, I think - emotion regarding rights that will be lost, for people from the EU who live here, and for damage to the NHS and for freedom to travel and live in the EU with no impediments or bureaucracy and loads more. About our image as an open, free, welcoming society and nation. About keeping the Union together, about not having bombs in N.Ireland again.

Me personally, I'm not a massive EU enthusiast at all and there are versions of leave I could tolerate relatively happily, given that's what was voted for, but eff me, the Tories and Labour have made an absolute arse of it all.

[bobzy]

33 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

Really good addition to the debate there. Arguing against points no one made and reacting with a laughing face to reasonable replies.

It's pretty much all that happens in reality with leave voters.

 

I'm yet to hear one solid reason as to why this is a good thing.  The rhetoric has now shifted to "we got through tough times after the war and we'll be fine again".  It's **** tragic.

[bobzy]

6 minutes ago, blandy said:

Me personally, I'm not a massive EU enthusiast at all and there are versions of leave I could tolerate relatively happily, given that's what was voted for, but eff me, the Tories and Labour have made an absolute arse of it all.

???

[Mic09]

1 minute ago, bobzy said:

???

Haven't they?