The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[colhint]

27 minutes ago, bickster said:

Only one side committed massive election fraud

Only one side benefitted from wrong illegal advice from the Election Commission

Also, the demographics have completely changed since the vote. Nearly 1.6 million voters in the original referendum will be dead by the end of March 2019 and an additional 1.4 million voters will have come of age

 

Just wondering which side was that?

[HanoiVillan]

7 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

I would genuinely love for us to come out of this well.

I have no interest in being able to say 'I told you so'. I would much prefer to be proven utterly wrong to have worried about our future. The mood music right now is that there could be some form of deal both sides are happy with. If that's true, and we can prosper, I'll be really happy.

 

 

7 hours ago, Seat68 said:

Literally not one remainer wants to be proven right. 

 

6 hours ago, brommy said:

I hope that’s true. Whether supporting the majority decision or not, it’s better for the UK to get the best deal possible, given the circumstances of honouring the democratic majority. For example, as an active Labour and CND member in my late teens and early twenties and as someone who has never voted Tory in any national or local election in my life, I have always wanted each government to succeed; for the good of the UK, for the good of my family and for the good of democracy.

 

6 hours ago, brommy said:

Unfortunately on this thread or microcosm alone, there have been several references ‘schadenfreude’. It’s perfectly possible those who want the process to fail will spend the next couple of decades in a state of schadenfreude whilst the rest of us are managing our lives,  as ever, to the best way we can.

I think this is an interesting discussion, but the idea of 'success' or 'failure' is obviously too simplistic, and doesn't answer the obvious question of 'success or failure for who?'

There is clearly a way of Brexit failing, which is exceedingly dramatic, as helpfully outlined by the Mail on Sunday today:

This failure mode, which is better understood as a partial societal collapse, is something that I assume roughly 100% of voters can agree they don't want. 

The problem comes at any deeper level of the negotiation. To take just one example, my business relies, in part, on students from EU countries being easily able to enter the country, and work and study here. It is pretty clear that ending free movement is a key part of Britain's targets for the negotiations, and it seems clear to me that Theresa May would both personally and politically like an outcome that led to as few foreigners as possible coming to our country. On this issue, 'success' for Britain (as represented by Theresa May) is 'failure' for me, and vice versa. 'We all want Brexit to be a success' is only true at the most basic levels of 'we'd all like to live in a better world, as we perceive it, than the one we currently live in' and 'nobody wants to starve'. 

[ml1dch]

22 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

 

 

 

I think this is an interesting discussion, but the idea of 'success' or 'failure' is obviously too simplistic, and doesn't answer the obvious question of 'success or failure for who?'

There is clearly a way of Brexit failing, which is exceedingly dramatic, as helpfully outlined by the Mail on Sunday today:

This failure mode, which is better understood as a partial societal collapse, is something that I assume roughly 100% of voters can agree they don't want. 

The bit of your post I've removed I fully agree with, and was basically a far better, more concise version of what I was going to post.

What I think brommy's definition of "successful" in his original post is something that is agreed and passes acceptably through the UK parliament and the various EU machinery. Even though what that basically has to amount to is "everything as it is now, but UK input and representation is removed".

And I'd bet a lot of money that there weren't many voters in 2016 who would describe that as their resolution of choice, so whether it's now a "success" is pretty arguable.

The bit I've quoted, I disagree. There are a significant number of people for whom success is defined as "leaving, whatever the cost". Whether for democratic reasons or ignorance reasons, the consequence isn't important it's simply the fact that we've left.

[OutByEaster?]

2 hours ago, Chindie said:

I'm sure had Remain won in a similar fashion the Leave vote would have got over it and shut up.

I know you're being sarcastic, but I actually think you're right. I think Leave voters would have gone on with their lives without the same levels of fuss and nonsense.

Let me give you an example that illustrates why; Three men stand by a fire - one says "I think we should all put our arms into the fire", one says "That's a terrible idea" and the other can't decide.

Now, in situation a. The undecided one votes "No" and none of the men put their arms into the fire. A couple of weeks later they've all forgotten about it and only occasionally remember it as a bit of a giggle.

In situation b. The undecided one votes "Yes" and they all put their arms into the fire. They're horribly burned, one loses a finger, one has no sensation in his hand and all suffer terrible pain and scarring. The one that voted "No" to putting his arm in the fire occasionally complains. The other two call him a snowflake.

Thank you.

 

[Seat68]

I didnt vote to put my arm in a fire, I was told I would put my arm in tepid water and I would have fluffy towels to pat me dry afterwards. 

[bickster]

9 hours ago, colhint said:

Just wondering which side was that?

I think you know perfectly well which side it was that had collusion between the campaigns and overspending, both are forms of electoral fraud in this instance. I suspect you want a discussion on the use of the word fraud which is utterly futile. Use whatever word you want,  electoral law was broken making the vote undemocratic, the point was to refute the point that it was the most democratic election in 30 years, it wasn't.

If a company changes its accounts to reduce its tax liability, its fraud. This was fraud

[StefanAVFC]

Still yet to hear an argument for Brexit in this thread that isn't 'I think it'll be fine' or 'will of the people'.

[WhatAboutTheFinish]

4 hours ago, StefanAVFC said:

Still yet to hear an argument for Brexit in this thread that isn't 'I think it'll be fine' or 'will of the people'.

I thinks that’s because the fundamental reasons people voted for brexit haven’t changed, despite all the new reports, since page one.

Heres an old school explaination...

 

Or as the Leader of the Opposition would put it...

 

[Xann]

16 minutes ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said:

Or as the Leader of the Opposition would put it...

You're voting for him at the next election?

[WhatAboutTheFinish]

12 minutes ago, Xann said:

You're voting for him at the next election?

I’m an EU resident so probably won’t get the chance

[Xann]

25 minutes ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said:

I’m an EU resident so probably won’t get the chance

If you did?

[WhatAboutTheFinish]

4 minutes ago, Xann said:

If you did?

There’s a lot of variables. Clearly he’s not an obvious selection for me but who knows, he might be able to win me over?

[choffer]

Border issue resolved then....

 

[Xann]

1 hour ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said:

There’s a lot of variables. Clearly he’s not an obvious selection for me but who knows, he might be able to win me over?

If it's not to be Corbyn? It's likely to be a Tory vision of the future. We're looking at systems more like the US in areas such as healthcare and food standards.

That's ok with you?

[WhatAboutTheFinish]

55 minutes ago, Xann said:

If it's not to be Corbyn? It's likely to be a Tory vision of the future. We're looking at systems more like the US in areas such as healthcare and food standards.

That's ok with you?

For me a Corbyn vision vs a May vision vs a Cable vision probably equals a spoiled ballot paper.

I’m not sure the overall future of the UK has to be a binary choice between an EU or a US model, maybe there is another way, a third way if you will. 

[Xann]

Just now, WhatAboutTheFinish said:

I’m not sure the overall future of the UK has to be a binary choice between an EU or a US model, maybe there is another way, a third way if you will. 

I'd hoped this too, though it didn't seem to materialise in any way at the last election (around me anyway). Everyone went hardcore red/blue.

That was with both Labour and the Tories in chaos.

Don't see even the start of a swing away from the traditional two.

We appear to have a stark choice, it's not pretty either way.

Labour won't find it easy to raise funds from the world of finance, especially with the record record debt the Tories have racked up.

The Tories simply don't give a shit about the man on the street unless it's the week before an election. They won't lose any sleep as bankruptcies through medical costs become the norm.

This situation stinks. What's worse? Whoever is in Downing Street enjoys the special powers the govt gave themselves to try and disentangle European laws from ours.

With both parties being shit, this is a horrific mess.

I find myself forced to vote Labour, as the scenario of having to mortgage my retirement bungalow in 20 years to help with medical bills of a child or grandchild is all too real.

[bickster]

25 minutes ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said:

I’m not sure the overall future of the UK has to be a binary choice between an EU or a US model, maybe there is another way, a third way if you will. 

 

I'm fairly sure that this is exactly what the Tories have in mind

[Stevo985]

2 hours ago, choffer said:

Border issue resolved then....

 

I hate this about May.

I know all politicians are the same in avoiding the question. But she seems to be the absolute queen at talking a lot without ever saying anything.

[HanoiVillan]

2 hours ago, choffer said:

Border issue resolved then....

 

Ps 'take another look at the Conservative party - we're great'

[ml1dch]

1 hour ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said:

I’m not sure the overall future of the UK has to be a binary choice between an EU or a US model, maybe there is another way, a third way if you will. 

It's obviously not going to be as black and white as that, but it's what our choice is basically going to boil down to. 

Do we want to be in the EU's regulatory orbit, which will mean large-scale US trade isn't an option or do we want to be in the US's regulatory orbit which will mean large-scale EU trade isn't an option.

Unfortunately our current society is dependent on it being the former, but there are people in positions of power pushing for the latter.

The "third way" probably means we can't do large-scale trade with either of them!