The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[Chindie]

In other news the long awaited government White Paper is supposedly farcical.

Shocked.

[VILLAMARV]

14 hours ago, ml1dch said:

That's an absolutely excellent post, and one that deserves a good and thorough answer. I can't give you that, so I'll have to go with a short, massively insubstantial answer, which is:

I completely agree, the world is full of real, complex problems to which all the possible solutions are just differing shades of awful. Many of them on our doorstep and with our fingerprints all over them.

Which is why it's extremely aggravating that rather than investing our significant political capital into that, our entire focus is on a load of trite blather about imaginary sovereignty and the minutiae of trading regulations.

What other answer is there. If we knew it surely we'd have some sort of progression - it's what everyone in here wants whatever their politics. I get that "It's easier to pull the trigger than play the guitar. Easier to destroy than to create" and that attacking things from the outside is easier than being in the diplomatic reality of appeasement and agreements. I have also always preferred to view the left/right paradigm in the form of a horseshoe or circle where the true diametric opposites are Anarchists and Centrists and middle of the road left-wingers and middle of the road right-wingers.

I've also never been interested in recruiting anyone to a set of beliefs. I'd much rather people reach their own conclusions in life. Left to our own devises we agree about so much all over the globe. I just wish the debates we engage in could be framed within the boundaries of our actual reality rather than some dystopian hypernormalised charade. Something that is getting harder to do when you have to wade through the barrage of information and advertising we have all grown up under the influence of.

No one wants the UK's citizens to lose money or jobs or businesses or freedoms or protections unless they are a sociopath. What a shame that the phrase about caps fitting seems appropriate when discussing the current set of law makers as much as the last lot. "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss"

It's not that the minutae of the regulations is unimportant or boring, far from it. Or that being shafted by great British sovereignty is any more preferable than the shotgun diplomacy of the EU, IMF, Trumps America or anyone else for that matter.

Everyone wondering how far down the road the Irish Border problem or indeed the Brexit nonsense can be kicked should remember that there has been a lack of coherent consensus within British politics towards the EU in general since the Maastricht Treaty in 1992 made it much more than an economic trading group. Rightly or wrongly that is the reason this debate even exists. So the marker is set at about 24 years then.....

[Risso]

22 hours ago, Chindie said:

In other news the long awaited government White Paper is supposedly farcical.

Shocked.

I'm shocked that you're shocked at something that you haven't read because it hasn't been made public yet.

[Chindie]

31 minutes ago, Risso said:

I'm shocked that you're shocked at something that you haven't read because it hasn't been made public yet.

Just commenting on the talk around it. I believe that's allowed, even in Brexit Britain. I'm shocked that you're shocked that I'm sarcastically shocked at suggestion a much delayed paper put out by a clueless government is apparently ridiculous. I'll happily rescind my shock if it turns out to not be pants on head moronic.

Warning - more comments on a not yet published report

Translating it into various languages is daft too. Especially as this seems to be part of a play to go over Barnier's head, which won't work, which we should know by now.

Especially as we've openly revealed this part of the misguided and never ending divide and rule tactic, which again won't work and hasn't worked, and openly telling everyone that that is the tactic makes it even more unlikely to work.

Brexit - by morons for morons.

[VILLAMARV]

6 hours ago, Chindie said:

Just commenting on the talk around it. I believe that's allowed, even in Brexit Britain. I'm shocked that you're shocked that I'm sarcastically shocked at suggestion a much delayed paper put out by a clueless government is apparently ridiculous. I'll happily rescind my shock if it turns out to not be pants on head moronic.

Warning - more comments on a not yet published report

Translating it into various languages is daft too. Especially as this seems to be part of a play to go over Barnier's head, which won't work, which we should know by now.

Especially as we've openly revealed this part of the misguided and never ending divide and rule tactic, which again won't work and hasn't worked, and openly telling everyone that that is the tactic makes it even more unlikely to work.

I agree with all of that

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Brexit - by morons for morons.

I ******** hate that. Without a qualifying alternative it makes me honestly wonder if you believe Bremain is for clever people by clever people? Shame, because it spoils your otherwise salient points for me.

It's not you specifically, it's loads of people I speak to.

Firstly, the derision and dismissal of Farage and Trump and their followers only led to them becoming stronger. So it should act as a reminder to engage with the argument however easy it may be to laugh at. As the ripple of support for the odeous Nick Griffin and the BNP a few years ago also proved if you let them have their say they will annihilate themselves (Much like the Tories ripping themselves apart now eh?). You're playing into their hands imo.

Secondly, I have trouble understanding what the snappy alternative for Bremain/The EU really is in people's minds. I'd be fascinated by the replies. As I've said before in this thread I don't understand what it is that the EU provides that is so utterly unthinkable to question. It has hardly proven to be a bastion of morality.

Thirdly, "the misguided and never ending divide and rule tactic, which again won't work and hasn't worked" - Unless you class yourself as a Brexit Moron, which I sincerely doubt, you kind of massively proved yourself wrong about 20 words later. Or is it only 'the other' which has to consider these things?

Construction of a group identity that is condescending, dismissive, divisive and ultimately a detriment to the cause, for which your passion for the subject is entirely admirable. It scares me like the Pied Piper should and I'm seeing it all around me. If the debate is so obvious that it can be boiled down to Black and White, Good vs Evil, Thicky's and Clever People then win the debate - especially as the answer is so apparently obvious. Unfortunately the reality is so much more Shades of Grey that the 'Us and Them' nature of the national discourse is the only thing that has prolonged this nonsense for the last 3 years outside of the political will to do so.

 

[Chindie]

14 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said:

I agree with all of that

I ******** hate that. Without a qualifying alternative it makes me honestly wonder if you believe Bremain is for clever people by clever people? Shame, because it spoils your otherwise salient points for me.

It's not you specifically, it's loads of people I speak to.

Firstly, the derision and dismissal of Farage and Trump and their followers only led to them becoming stronger. So it should act as a reminder to engage with the argument however easy it may be to laugh at. As the ripple of support for the odeous Nick Griffin and the BNP a few years ago also proved if you let them have their say they will annihilate themselves (Much like the Tories ripping themselves apart now eh?). You're playing into their hands imo.

It's just frustration. 

It's also interesting that in these divisive issues, there's always a side that has to concede and listen, and another that pigheadedly goes on and on. We had literally years of UKIP and it's hordes and all the nonsense arguments that followed it from the papers and the right on chap down the pub that was born of ignorance and simply refused to listen to the arguments against, or learn a little. And then when they get their way it's somehow the other side's fault!  I fancy trying the other side, being belligerent and never shutting up. It's why I'm looking forward to the schadenfreude.

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Secondly, I have trouble understanding what the snappy alternative for Bremain/The EU really is in people's minds. I'd be fascinated by the replies. As I've said before in this thread I don't understand what it is that the EU provides that is so utterly unthinkable to question. It has hardly proven to be a bastion of morality.

I couldn't care less what the 'Remoaner' alternative is.

Nobody has said the EU is unquestionable. It's rather questionable in some ways. Does that mean it should be binned off? Does that mean that the people who believe Brexit is foolish should shut up?

There's literally thousands of pages of discussion of what the EU brings to the table. Most importantly it's really rather important to our economy. Without it, or at very least access to it's market, an awful lot of business in the UK is in trouble. But it's also quite good on citizens rights. And so on.

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Thirdly, "the misguided and never ending divide and rule tactic, which again won't work and hasn't worked" - Unless you class yourself as a Brexit Moron, which I sincerely doubt, you kind of massively proved yourself wrong about 20 words later. Or is it only 'the other' which has to consider these things?

Construction of a group identity that is condescending, dismissive, divisive and ultimately a detriment to the cause, for which your passion for the subject is entirely admirable. It scares me like the Pied Piper should and I'm seeing it all around me. If the debate is so obvious that it can be boiled down to Black and White, Good vs Evil, Thicky's and Clever People then win the debate - especially as the answer is so apparently obvious. Unfortunately the reality is so much more Shades of Grey that the 'Us and Them' nature of the national discourse is the only thing that has prolonged this nonsense for the last 3 years outside of the political will to do so.

I'm not trying to divide and rule.

There's no argument to win. Many Brexiteers are so blinkered, so convinced of so much nonsense, so ignorant of the EU and the way it's politics works, so uninterested in the extremely important minor details, so uninterested in and ignorant of politics generally, and an influential few so eager to benefit, that there is no argument. The argument was lost and the bad guys won. The fight to make the loss as painless as possible is increasingly lost.

So it's all frustration really.

[snowychap]

1 hour ago, VILLAMARV said:

win the debate

There is no debate. There wasn't any leading up to the referendum of any worth and there hasn't been any since.

Edit: I'll be slightly less absolute - there was hardly any before and hasn't been a great deal since.

Edited July 2, 2018 by snowychap

[blandy]

2 hours ago, VILLAMARV said:

It's not you specifically, it's loads of people I speak to.

 Firstly, the derision and dismissal of Farage and Trump and their followers only led to them becoming stronger.

That may, or may not be true, but it doesn’t impact on the “by morons, for morons” generalisation. The thing we know is that Trump and Farage etc. have been lying, absolutely, continually, for personal benefit, for ages. We know that pretty much the rest of the Brexiteers have been doing the same. Now the people who’ve fallen for those lies, they might not all be morons, but they’re certainly easily fooled.

Before anyone comes along with a “but the other side...” Yes, they lied a bit, too. But by and large people (remain voters) thought “lie” when they heard them. They didn’t believe the propaganda, they were able to filter it out.

Dismissing leave voters or the reasons they voted leave, is wrong, in terms of trying to change their minds. Me personally, I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind. And any way it’s far easier to fool someone, than to get someone whose been fooled to recognise that it’s happened. That’s the way the human brain works. Once it’s settled on a truth, it becomes embedded.  People want to believe that a good thing will happen to them, so it’s relatively easy to fool us, but tell us we’ve been fooled and the nice thing won’t happen, and we actively don’t want to believe that, even when shown evidence. Looking at so many leave voters and supporters refusing to acknowledge what an utter clusterpork is happening, well it’s hard not feel there’s a significant number of people with diminished critical faculties amongst their number. And they’re going to be the angriest of the lot, however it turns out. If Brexit doesn’t happen - angry. Soft Brexit - “ but we were promised...”. Hard Brexit, and they’re going to rodgered, along with almost everyone else. Angry, angry “morons”.

[Chindie]

AIG openly informing Insureds they have shifted policies to be under their new EU business in Luxembourg.

Make no mistake that every other Insurer is doing the same thing to ensure EU access. Meaning money and jobs going out of the UK.

Rinse and repeat for almost all financial services businesses.

Brexit. Pants on head moronic.

[VILLAMARV]

 

5 hours ago, snowychap said:

There is no debate. There wasn't any leading up to the referendum of any worth and there hasn't been any since.

Edit: I'll be slightly less absolute - there was hardly any before and hasn't been a great deal since.

Quite.

 

[VILLAMARV]

5 hours ago, Chindie said:

It's just frustration. 

It's also interesting that in these divisive issues, there's always a side that has to concede and listen, and another that pigheadedly goes on and on. We had literally years of UKIP and it's hordes and all the nonsense arguments that followed it from the papers and the right on chap down the pub that was born of ignorance and simply refused to listen to the arguments against, or learn a little. And then when they get their way it's somehow the other side's fault!  I fancy trying the other side, being belligerent and never shutting up. It's why I'm looking forward to the schadenfreude.

I get the frustration, my own was the source of my post too I also get we're more inclined to have a moan (I bet the data from on topic would back this up lol! Imagine the word cloud for the Gabby thread! - Anyway enough of that)

I just don't agree with the rest. I think elements within both sides of the 72% have engaged in the behavior you lay out - at times. I think both sides of the in or out debate have salient points too. I believe that both sides will have to conceed and listen. It might also be prudent to remember the 28% while they are about it and the great uncounted while we are at it (think of the children! the politicians in particular will love that one!). We are all British and until told any differently EU citizens at the end of the day.

It's knee-jerk pigeon holing of sections of society into easy to process group identities and it's being spoon-fed to us all like this by the media. It's just as bad as that Labour politicians tweet about white-van-man to me. And while we're on Emily Thornberry (shudder) I love the term Gammon-Faced don't get me wrong. I've used it myself shouting at Question Time for instance on the rare occasions I bother to inflict it upon myself anymore. I just don't assume this personifies 37% of the population and their collective reasoning as moronic.

Quote

I couldn't care less what the 'Remoaner' alternative is.

It shows and it's a shame imho. Also I just wanted to add that your choice of terminology not mine. I feel it's a nasty little term that one.

In the name of fairness and such I much prefer the tit for tat adding of a BR in front of a vowel to bastardise some words. Genuinely thought it would make a fun little fill in the blanks type thing though

Bremain - by________for________

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Nobody has said the EU is unquestionable. It's rather questionable in some ways.

Then genuinely, why is it so easy to dismiss people's opinions as moronic if you can see the things they don't like?

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Does that mean it should be binned off? Does that mean that the people who believe Brexit is foolish should shut up?

Of course not. That would be reactionary extremism in my view. Although I read them as rhetorical questions I assumed you'd know my leanings towards people being allowed their say

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There's literally thousands of pages of discussion of what the EU brings to the table. Most importantly it's really rather important to our economy. Without it, or at very least access to it's market, an awful lot of business in the UK is in trouble. But it's also quite good on citizens rights. And so on.

Granted, and I assume we agree there's no need to attempt to replicate or summarise the last 450odd pages of it either. What I still don't get is how people assume 37% of the population are to thick to realise those things. And I genuinely don't hear the opposing view offering the same critique.

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I'm not trying to divide and rule.

fair point. I assume you take the point about division. Even without the desire to rule.

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There's no argument to win. Many Brexiteers are so blinkered, so convinced of so much nonsense, so ignorant of the EU and the way it's politics works, so uninterested in the extremely important minor details, so uninterested in and ignorant of politics generally, and an influential few so eager to benefit, that there is no argument. The argument was lost and the bad guys won. The fight to make the loss as painless as possible is increasingly lost.

So it's all frustration really.

Well, Brexiteers are people and as such if I changed the word Brexiteers to people then I could wholeheartedly agree with that and it's a sad indictment on both our political and education systems as well as our media. Point being I know remainers who this is also true of and I think the opinion of good-guys and bad-guys oversimplifies matters to a ridiculous level.

However, like I say I feel the frustration. And genuinely thanks for the reply.

And @Chindie, I'm not having a go, I just finally bit in a thread where my own frustration normally leads me to leave you all to get on with it

I do see a flip side of hope in all this and while it's not great at all it's something to cling on to! Which is that they make such a pigs ear of the whole thing that people finally snap and start actually implementing some sort of progressive change that we all want and could get tomorrow if there was the slightest bit of unity. I see the battle to do that with as little pain as possible to be the thing that is lost at this point. Hopefully it wont take people being tasered or shot before we come together and demand the things we all want. Or to put it another way, that D:Ream song was always a little unrealistic unfortunately.

[VILLAMARV]

12 hours ago, blandy said:

That may, or may not be true,

Fair point

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but it doesn’t impact on the “by morons, for morons” generalisation. The thing we know is that Trump and Farage etc. have been lying, absolutely, continually, for personal benefit, for ages. We know that pretty much the rest of the Brexiteers have been doing the same. Now the people who’ve fallen for those lies, they might not all be morons, but they’re certainly easily fooled.Before anyone comes along with a “but the other side...” Yes, they lied a bit, too. But by and large people (remain voters) thought “lie” when they heard them. They didn’t believe the propaganda, they were able to filter it out.

That may or may not be true And despite the touche turtle moment I just think some of that is divisive nonsense and supercilious to be blunt. The bits about Trump, Farage and (I would say) other high-profile Brexit campaigners lying for money or personal gain well earned that 'some' in the last sentence. And whilst I'm being cheeky, much like with chindie, I'm not having a go, I just rile against the divisive tone as it propagates the division the current crop of politicians need in order to get the job done. Whatever that is.

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Dismissing leave voters or the reasons they voted leave, is wrong, in terms of trying to change their minds. Me personally, I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind. And any way it’s far easier to fool someone, than to get someone whose been fooled to recognise that it’s happened. That’s the way the human brain works. Once it’s settled on a truth, it becomes embedded.  People want to believe that a good thing will happen to them, so it’s relatively easy to fool us, but tell us we’ve been fooled and the nice thing won’t happen, and we actively don’t want to believe that, even when shown evidence.

Like I said above I can find some common ground there. The not needing to have people agree with me and the way the brain works especially. I think the Xia thread from my own perspective backs up the bit about not wanting to believe we've been lied to

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Looking at so many leave voters and supporters refusing to acknowledge what an utter clusterpork is happening, well it’s hard not feel there’s a significant number of people with diminished critical faculties amongst their number. And they’re going to be the angriest of the lot, however it turns out. If Brexit doesn’t happen - angry. Soft Brexit - “ but we were promised...”. Hard Brexit, and they’re going to rodgered, along with almost everyone else. Angry, angry “morons”.

Again though, this may or may not be true. And while I can agree there's some truth to that, I can't help thinking there's some projection going on though.

Gammon Faces exist I'll give you all that. And they signify a not unsubstantial part of the out vote it seems. They seem pretty moronic when given a platform. Which seems to be a lot to me. More than they should be anyway! (I have the clearing in the woods from Wetherspoons in my mind as I'm typing that). As I said to Chindie last night though I feel you are falling into the trap of pigeon holing of sections of society into easy to process group identities which is being spoon-fed to us all like this by the media. It's easy to find things about the Wetherspoons chap, Farage, Neil ******* Hamilton (You should be glad you're not this side of the Welsh border - he's an actual 'politician' over here don't you know ) et al to dislike, they all 3 ooze everything bad in your post. They may very well represent the views and opinions of some of those with enough money to consider this all an irrelevance.

As I've said before in this thread, many of those out voters have literally nothing to lose though - Hard, Soft, Brussells, no Brussells - It makes so little difference to their actual lives. You know? What about when their mortgage goes up because of the banks? or they lose their jobs because the firm that employs them is moving abroad? Or their car becomes more expensive to run? What mortgage? And what job? and what car? would be the more common reply imo. You'll be waiting a long time for any anger from this section of society surpasses that of the parts of the remain side of the coin that are uttering that sort of rhetoric though.

But my point wasn't originally about whether there are actually morons or not, rather that it's just all too easy to revert to wrapping things up in a soundbite - or twitter sized post to avoid all the TL:DR stuff by creating a group identity to attack because it's easier than accepting that things like the inequality underlying our society (whether we are in or out of the EU) has much to blame, rightly or wrongly, for where we are now. Much more than what Farage said. If we make it all about what we see on the telly or Airbus are we not playing into the hands of the people controlling the narrative?

 

[VILLAMARV]

Anyway, get your memes in today. The EU might have banned user generated content by tea-time

And whilst a little churlish, I assume the mods in particular have an eye on that one today?

I expect to see Jacob Rees Mogg front and centre - "They're coming after your message boards!" - That aught to resonate with the youth, what? pip pip and all that.

I shall quote some text in a box while we/you definitely still don't have to pay to do so - amirite mods?

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The directive's proposals include giving publishers the ability to request payment for the use of short bits of text, that for-profit websites who primarily host content posted by users must take "effective and proportionate" measures to prevent unauthorized postings of copyrighted content, and copyright exceptions for text and data mining by scientific research institutions. Because both licenses and exceptions are established on a national basis, articles 11 and 13 would fragment the EU market contrary to the stated goal of the directive. Member of parliament Stephen Doughty also wants to see similar upload filters used to prevent "extremist material" on the Internet.

On April 26, 2018, 145 organizations from the areas of human and digital rights, media freedom, publishing, libraries, educational institutions, software developers, and Internet service providers signed a letter opposing the proposed legislation. Some of those opposed include Electronic Frontier Foundation, Creative Commons, European Digital Rights, various Wikimedia chapters, and as of June 29, 2018, Wikimedia Foundation, owner of Wikipedia. Individuals who have publicly opposed the law include Tim Berners-Lee and Vint Cerf who raise concerns regarding the costs and effectiveness of upload filters and the negative effects on free speech online. A change.org petition opposing the directive has more than 600,000 signatures. Groups that support the directive include many publishers and media groups. This includes David Guetta, three major music labels, and the Independent Music Companies Association.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_on_Copyright_in_the_Digital_Single_Market

[snowychap]

11 hours ago, VILLAMARV said:

Quite.

I have a feeling this wasn't a post in agreement with my sentiment.

[Straggler]

1 hour ago, VILLAMARV said:

As I've said before in this thread, many of those out voters have literally nothing to lose though - Hard, Soft, Brussells, no Brussells - It makes so little difference to their actual lives. You know? What about when their mortgage goes up because of the banks? or they lose their jobs because the firm that employs them is moving abroad? Or their car becomes more expensive to run? What mortgage? And what job? and what car? would be the more common reply imo. You'll be waiting a long time for any anger from this section of society surpasses that of the parts of the remain side of the coin that are uttering that sort of rhetoric though.

The thing for me about this is that these people have much more to lose than this arguement would have you believe. Brexit is more than a move away from the EU it is a journey to somewhere else. Take a look at who is leading that journey. In the main these are people who would shrink the state, remove benefits, follow the US model of healthcare, find human rights an inconvenience, value the needs of corporations ahead of people, would drive the cost of labour (aka peoples wages) down, cast the jobless as parasites and those in need as leeches. Under the headline of taking back control they hide a litany of exploitation and self interest that will fundamentally hurt the most vunerable people in the country. There will come a time when those with nothing to lose come to realise how much they have given away.

[VILLAMARV]

1 minute ago, snowychap said:

I have a feeling this wasn't a post in agreement with my sentiment.

Totally agreeing with the statement.

We may have a difference of sentiment, who knows? Maybe it gets a little lost in translation. I don't think we're a million miles apart lets put it that way.

"win the argument" was a poor choice of words in the post you were quoting on reflection and maybe there's a better way of rounding off that sentence and sticking to the point I was trying to make (Something else we can probably agree on that I find difficult in here from time to time ). Surely you can agree that if things really were as simple and black and white as some people (on both sides) portray it at times then things would have been done and dusted a long time ago. Which is rather banal considering it is basically "It's Complicated!"

All I was trying to point out was that to me it seems people are disengaging with the realities and falling into the trap of following a path of hubris, arranged and laid out before them when we surely all agree there is a simpler, more beneficial answer out there that neither side has offered or dared to go anywhere near for some inexplicable reason. The first part of which could have been to spend this past 3 years engaging in a proper debate in my honest opinion.

 

[VILLAMARV]

11 minutes ago, Straggler said:

The thing for me about this is that these people have much more to lose than this arguement would have you believe. Brexit is more than a move away from the EU it is a journey to somewhere else. Take a look at who is leading that journey. In the main these are people who would shrink the state, remove benefits, follow the US model of healthcare, find human rights an inconvenience, value the needs of corporations ahead of people, would drive the cost of labour (aka peoples wages) down, cast the jobless as parasites and those in need as leeches. Under the headline of taking back control they hide a litany of exploitation and self interest that will fundamentally hurt the most vunerable people in the country. There will come a time when those with nothing to lose come to realise how much they have given away.

I agree. I never said they were right, right?

[snowychap]

 

40 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said:

"win the argument" was a poor choice of words in the post you were quoting on reflection and maybe there's a better way of rounding off that sentence and sticking to the point I was trying to make (Something else we can probably agree on that I find difficult in here from time to time ). Surely you can agree that if things really were as simple and black and white as some people (on both sides) portray it at times then things would have been done and dusted a long time ago. Which is rather banal considering it is basically "It's Complicated!"

All I was trying to point out was that to me it seems people are disengaging with the realities and falling into the trap of following a path of hubris, arranged and laid out before them when we surely all agree there is a simpler, more beneficial answer out there that neither side has offered or dared to go anywhere near for some inexplicable reason.

I don't think win is a poor choice. It's what the politics of the referendum vote (and all the subsequent brouhaha) is about and was always ever about. It was about two groups each with a clear winning objective (one: 'yes', the other: 'no') but without clearly and precisely defined actual objectives beyond the winning line (either of them).

Indeed I think your apparently mixed complaints about both the simplicity and complexity support this. The question and the answers were both too simple and too complex and still are.

40 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said:

The first part of which could have been to spend this past 3 years engaging in a proper debate in my honest opinion.

My point is that there hasn't been that and there never was going to be that.

Only a minority would have been ever interested in that and they'd never have won any offical 'campaign' designation. That we actually had such things as official Leave and Remain campaigns that themselves won selection was ludicrous and cried out what a shambles the whole thing was likely to be.

The politics of vote winning is about trying to persuade the undecided to accept your stance (however that may have been arrived at). That the undecided may have been largely reared on a diet of prejudice and misinformation (apologies to Matt Johnson) just makes them all the more susceptible to how well the various lies were told or how well directed they were.

 

Anyway, all of this is largely moot in my view.

The politics of the internal borders of the Schengen area will have much more of an effect on the EU and, by our physical proximity if nothing else, our medium term future than will the result of the referendum. The politics of our parliament ought to have had more bearing on our short term future than it has been allowed (and would probably ever have been allowed) but that has as much to do with all governments since the late eighties than those 'will of the people' gimps who never intended for anything other than a symbolic, claimed 'sovereignty' to be returned (that's not against all of those who voted on sovereignty issues, it's against the disingenuous ones like Mogg et al.).

Edited July 3, 2018 by snowychap

[blandy]

3 hours ago, VILLAMARV said:

Gammon Faces exist I'll give you all that. And they signify a not unsubstantial part of the out vote it seems. They seem pretty moronic when given a platform. Which seems to be a lot to me...

...If we make it all about what we see on the telly or Airbus are we not playing into the hands of the people controlling the narrative?

Basically, there are loads of "gammon faces/morons/whatever you want to call uninformed, uncurious, shouty, ignorant people who voted leave. As much as there are also intelligent types who did the same. Labelling them all as morons or gammons is daft, but there's a ton of them. It's equally daft to deny it.

I don't much like the EU, tbh, it's very flawed, but it's also the case that anything other than the softest of Brexits will leave us worse off. Gammons and Professors, morons and Doctors. It's not a "may or may not be true" situation. We're well past the speculating what might happen stage.

The last line is very salient, because we've done the exact opposite - instead of letting the people controlling health, science, business, research etc. generate informed and educated, balanced appraisal and policy, we let  a handful of self promoting, tax avoiding, dodgy  geezers, extremist politicians, racists, media and speculators hijack the debate and pander to the gammons. While we shouldn't put all cont rol in the hands of Airbus etc. we should be doing more than completely ignoring their alarms with a "**** business" comment and calling their concers "inappropriate". 

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

14 minutes ago, blandy said:

we let  a handful of self promoting, tax avoiding, dodgy  geezers, extremist politicians, racists, media and speculators hijack the debate and pander to the gammons

Who I suspect have very little or totally nothing to lose in the process no matter what happens with the final deal. 

May,  Boris, Cameron and all them types could all retire tommorrow with literally millions,  they don't care and I can't understand why people think they do.  If the game was,  get a good deal May / Boris or lose all your assets,  it would I fear be a completley differnet ball game.

They would need to try really hard.