The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[tonyh29]

2 hours ago, desensitized43 said:

Have a look back...I've already said that I agreed with you that we can't be sure what exact percentage of right-wing nutter voted for Brexit. Must I say that again to make you feel better?

It might make you sleep easier at night to think that just because there's no empirical evidence against what you say (as it's a secret ballot). Logic and a wealth of evidence that can be gleaned from social media (including the official leave social media) points heavily in that direction.

You can argue (and throw childish insults around) all you like. I don't expect you to admit to being wrong, you voted leave after all....for the record, that's an "indirect" comment.

I swear we are having a different conversation with each other  , I started the day asking a poster if comparing leavers to Hitler worshippers was not as comparable to the Leave EU posters that were doing the rounds and the next thing we seem to be talking about my  love of defending Nazi's voting habits and things that keep me awake at night

i rarely voice an actual personal view , i will do occasionally if people ask for it , the rest of the time I'm merely picking up and joining one sided discussions with an alternative opinion , I shouldn't try to read too much into the argument under discussion tbh ,

I did vote leave , i've also given my reasons for why ( none of which involve me worshipping Hitler , just to be clear  ) .. time will tell if it was "wrong"   ... as for generally speaking  I've always put my hands up if I've made a mistake , I'm stubborn for sure but I'm not so proud that I can't admit when I'm wrong , its just it doesn't happen all that often

 

[NurembergVillan]

4 hours ago, tonyh29 said:

thanks for the point 

That gaff is horrible.

And I bet it stinks of hate and fishy fannies.

[tonyh29]

2 minutes ago, NurembergVillan said:

That gaff is horrible.

And I bet it stinks of hate and fishy fannies.

[blandy]

10 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

I started the day asking a poster if comparing leavers to Hitler worshippers was not as comparable to the Leave EU posters that were doing the rounds

Perhaps the difficulty is that some leavers' actually are more than a bit Hitler-worshippy. 

The Brexity throbber Yaxley-Lemon is caught here on the youtubes further making the point.

[bickster]

I believe he's collecting his most like Hitler in 2019 award. He chose the pre-power period where Hitler was agitating racially and got jailed. They applauded him for his lack of height as being true to original ideal, the only criticism was his lack of moustache

[Dr_Pangloss]

Leavers 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2019 by Dr_Pangloss

[chrisp65]

If only Hitler had been content with getting retards to send him money so he could build a chavvy house.

We’d all be a lot happier.

[tonyh29]

3 hours ago, mjmooney said:

People's mindsets seem to tend to fall into one of two very different viewpoints. 

Type A are essentially 'outward lookers'. So they might think: "Yes, I'm from (say) Birmingham, but I'm also from England. I'm English, but I'm also British. I'm British, and also European. I'm European, but most importantly I'm a member of the human race". 

Type B are the 'inward lookers' - the 'Balkanisers': "I'd rather be a white European than a different race. I'd rather be British than European. I'd rather be English. Being a Brummie's better than being from elsewhere". And so on, down to the football team. Kids are stabbing each other over postcode 'loyalty', for heaven's sake. 

There is a mutual incomprehension between the two types. 

The 'A's see themselves as kind, tolerant and intelligent. They see the 'B's as malevolent, bigoted and stupid. 

The 'B's see themselves as proud, loyal and steadfast. They see the 'A's as weak, naive and traitorous. 

I don't know how we can bridge this chasm. 

Well the first step would be for the A's to stop claiming to be tolerant whilst describing the B's as bigoted and stupid

in terms of what you are saying though ,  I dunno I mean I have friends who are leavers and friends who are remainers I've never heard the people in either camp describe or think of themself or others in either of those terms  , personally I think people in A can be  bigoted and stupid and people from B can be kind and intelligent , they aren't mutually exclusive 

I guess in a long-winded fashion what I'm trying to say is , your example kinda works for describing extremists but not for the 99.9%*  of the rest  (* insert your own figure here)

I appreciate it wasn't to be taken literally but generically speaking , outside VT I don't think I've ever met anyone who describes themself as European . I'm English as I was born here , I don't really think of myself beyond those terms ( insert see you've proved my point here !!)  MrsH has a British passport, but she would always refer to herself as Hungarian she wouldn't really classify herself as anything but Hungarian (I suspect , I don't wish to speak for her) , but she was outward looking enough to not tie herself to Hungary or even Hungarians ( luckily for her )  ...our kids , well that's a bit trickier , the boy refers to himself as Hunglish if you ask him

And finally we all know that being from Surrey is better than being from anywhere else , even though I was born in Kent ...  see it proves you can be A and B 

 

 

 

[tonyh29]

31 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

If only Hitler had been content with getting retards to send him money so he could build a chavvy house.

We’d all be a lot happier.

Apart from Bicks , he really hated that house

[mjmooney]

36 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

I don't think I've ever met anyone who describes themself as European

 

36 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

I was born in Kent ...

Maybe there's a connection. 

Of course we're European - unless the British Isles have been towed away somwhere and nobody told me. We're not Asian or North or South American or Australasian, are we? 

[tonyh29]

5 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

Of course we're European - unless the British Isles have been towed away somwhere and nobody told me. We're not Asian or North or South American or Australasian, are we? 

People keep doing this

I wasn't arguing that we aren't European , i specifically said I've not met anyone who describes themself as such  ..  When you met someone in a bar on holiday they tend to say " Hallo I'm Claudia and I'm from Germany and you can take me home for €100 and do naughty things to me"    , they don't tend to say " Hallo I'm Claudia and I'm from Europe  and it will be extra if you want to smother me in peanut butter "

i assumed we were both referencing  a discussion on here where some people said they weren't British but European

[mjmooney]

9 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

I assumed we were both referencing  a discussion on here where some people said they weren't British but European

Not what I said. 

My arbitrarily classified 'Type A' person (e.g. me) would probably say that they were simultaneously a Brummie AND English AND British AND European - with no implied hierarchy. 

Whereas the 'Type B' tends to have a hierarchy - the Brummie/English/British priorities may vary, but they all definitely rank ABOVE being European. In fact I keep seeing Brexiteers on social media insisting: "I'm NOT European, I'm BRITISH" -as if the two were mutually exclusive. Which to me is ridiculous. 

[tonyh29]

3 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

Not what I said. 

Welcome to my world

 

in that context ( not European - I'm British)  I agree that is ridiculous , but i wasn't saying that either (just to be clear)

[chrisp65]

5 hours ago, mjmooney said:

People's mindsets seem to tend to fall into one of two very different viewpoints. 

Type A are essentially 'outward lookers'. So they might think: "Yes, I'm from (say) Birmingham, but I'm also from England. I'm English, but I'm also British. I'm British, and also European. I'm European, but most importantly I'm a member of the human race". 

Type B are the 'inward lookers' - the 'Balkanisers': "I'd rather be a white European than a different race. I'd rather be British than European. I'd rather be English. Being a Brummie's better than being from elsewhere". And so on, down to the football team. Kids are stabbing each other over postcode 'loyalty', for heaven's sake. 

There is a mutual incomprehension between the two types. 

The 'A's see themselves as kind, tolerant and intelligent. They see the 'B's as malevolent, bigoted and stupid. 

The 'B's see themselves as proud, loyal and steadfast. They see the 'A's as weak, naive and traitorous. 

I don't know how we can bridge this chasm. 

That’s pretty close to my experience.

I know lots of people that do happily describe themselves as European. I also know people that have their defining characteristic that they served in the military and its that which has formed their world view and their place in that world.

The problem is living in an echo chamber, of any size, presuming the world works like any one individual’s narrow experience of the world and also presuming to know what other people think or believe. 

[Sid4ever]

7 hours ago, bickster said:

Apparently we may run out of bog roll in a No Deal situation as supplies aren't limitless say Bog Roll manufacturers (I know whats coming next)

Only if the queues at the ports last for weeks on end.  I know we have planned sufficiently, can’t say whether the media today has helped, not sure how much toilet paper was purchased today mind, or whether the prices have risen.

[bickster]

Just now, Sid4ever said:

Only if the queues at the ports last for weeks on end.  I know we have planned sufficiently, can’t say whether the media today has helped, not sure how much toilet paper was purchased today mind, or whether the prices have risen.

Yes, I agree, I don't think the prices have risen but I'd expect panic buying n the "My son's got the squits scale"

[colhint]

40 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

That’s pretty close to my experience.

I know lots of people that do happily describe themselves as European. I also know people that have their defining characteristic that they served in the military and its that which has formed their world view and their place in that world.

The problem is living in an echo chamber, of any size, presuming the world works like any one individual’s narrow experience of the world and also presuming to know what other people think or believe. 

I'm not sure I have come across this much. I have traveled all over the world pretty extensively and I don't think I have ever come across a person who identifies themselves from the continent where they were born. 

[bickster]

1 minute ago, colhint said:

I'm not sure I have come across this much. I have traveled all over the world pretty extensively and I don't think I have ever come across a person who identifies themselves from the continent where they were born. 

All Australians say Hi!

But on a more serious note, have you never met someone who identified as African? or Asian for that matter. Sorry, don't believe you

[WhatAboutTheFinish]

1 hour ago, mjmooney said:

Not what I said. 

My arbitrarily classified 'Type A' person (e.g. me) would probably say that they were simultaneously a Brummie AND English AND British AND European - with no implied hierarchy. 

Whereas the 'Type B' tends to have a hierarchy - the Brummie/English/British priorities may vary, but they all definitely rank ABOVE being European. In fact I keep seeing Brexiteers on social media insisting: "I'm NOT European, I'm BRITISH" -as if the two were mutually exclusive. Which to me is ridiculous. 

Where do remain backing SNP, Plaid and Sinn Fein voters fit into this categorisation?

[mjmooney]

3 minutes ago, colhint said:

I'm not sure I have come across this much. I have traveled all over the world pretty extensively and I don't think I have ever come across a person who identifies themselves from the continent where they were born. 

Not primarily, but as well as nationality. I have an Argentinian friend, who is quite happy to be identified as 'Latin American' among her European (e.g. British) friends. Doesn't mean she thinks she's Chilean or Brazilian, but she can see there are cultural similarities, just I can perceive cultural similarities between Brits and (say) Swedes, or French people, or Poles - as opposed to (say) Americans (even though Britain and the US share a language). I just can't see why any British person would insist that we aren't European; we simply are.