fightoffyour Posted March 21, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted March 21, 2019 Just now, StefanAVFC said: Ooh, where? Krakow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 1 minute ago, fightoffyour said: Krakow I'm not sure it's the most appropriate time. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 Kraków is overrated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fightoffyour Posted March 21, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted March 21, 2019 10 minutes ago, snowychap said: I'm not sure it's the most appropriate time. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, fightoffyour said: ? Sorry, it was a juvenile innuendo. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 I don't think I've read as big a load of bollocks from someone whose reporting I usually respect: Quote May 'gives olive branch to MPs' Chris Mason Political Correspondent It's very striking, listening to those news conferences from here in Westminster, that that was as close as you get to Theresa May slamming on the brakes on the message that was taken away by MPs from that statement she gave in Downing Street last night. She was going out of her way to heap praise on MPs. She said 'they have a difficult job to do'. She acknowledged that she was very grateful, not just to those MPs who have supported her deal, and those who have come round to supporting the deal, but those who have spoken to her who are still who are concerned about the deal. In other words, every single MP. That was more than just an olive branch of her reaching out and acknowledging that the framing of that address that she gave in Downing Street last night that went down spectacularly badly with so many MPs, that she needs to reach out to them. That is quite some 'interpretation' of what she said. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted March 21, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted March 21, 2019 22 minutes ago, villa4europe said: to be fair when was the last time some pro leavers were in here? its not really even debated anymore, all of the people in here are remain They have left the negotiations just like Farage and Boris. Tbh loads of people I know who voted leave have started to realise the errors of believing their lies. How I see it playing out...... MPs reject the deal, then the only way to stop us crashing out is to revoke article 50, which they do. They then have another referendum , stay or leave on Mays terms . Crashing out is not an option unless your next option is suicide and or nuclear war. WTO terms give us the worst terms anyone has , on those terms medication and certain foods run out and our gas price spirals out of control. Only our enemies would want that to happen . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackbauer24 Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 1 hour ago, tonyh29 said: No problem I don’t see it as being “picked on “ ... but if you wanted a proper talk without sarcasm you may have picked the wrong man but I’ll do what I can to answer you and once I have I know someone will be along to tell you what I really meant 1) As has been said before , the type of leave wasn’t really up for discussion , but I suppose I probably thought we’d kinda leave and end up like a glorified Switzerland type country , whereas all they’ve got that the world wants is Toblerone we’ve got a bit more to offer hence a better deal . Mays deal I’ve not read in full but the spectator 40 things article was a pretty decent read as to why it’s not a very good deal , even though on paper she secured a “win” over some parts of it 2) I said the other week that as it stands I’d withdraw article 50 if it was down to me ... not necessarily remain but remain until such point that we can get our affairs in order and plan it properly , if the country so wishes , I think the next GE or two will see more than just labour v Tory 3)think Bicks posted something the other day about chocolate cake and everything non chocolate cake ... it was sorta flawed because only 2 cakes were on offer in our referendum vote , but I guess to some extent if we delayed and had a GE you can have a choice of Corbyns unicorn v Mays successors unicorn , it won’t please everyone but Parliament never does , even something like scrapping trident would be divisive if a government did it 4) Not sure what you mean by tricked , do you mean tricked as in promises that were made ? In that case not really as I wasn’t a £350m bus voter so stuff like that didn’t really resonate with me ... I thought leaving would be easier if I’m honest , a trade deal between us and the EU should have taken seconds , I guess wrapping it all up into one bundle and saying sort these first and then we will talk trade was a good move on the EU’s behalf , but I think a stronger / better leader than May would have managed the whole process better , she rushed invoking article 50 when she really didn’t need to , we could /should have delayed that part . 5)I can’t really speak for everyone but it was sold as a one time only vote , we’ve seen a few countries say No to the EU get told to vote again until you come back with the right answer ( by their governments I should add , not the EU ) , I guess that’s the bit that prickles people ? ... I’m still not totally convinced remain would win a second referendum but I can’t see how the question could be worded other than leave or remain again , you can’t split leave options and then declare remain the winner if it has the largest individual share i’m not really sure I’ve given you what you asked for but hopefully it’s something . Genuinely, thanks for that. It's so hard to get reasoned debate (from both sides to some degree). To comment on a few bits; 1. You acknowledge you were kind of guessing what Leave was then and don't really think Leave just means Leave (you had a notion that you still fundamentally believe in but now it's looking not possible then Remain is preferable at least in the short term?) 2. I think the argument Bicks made, and I have made before, is that the referendum question was fatally flawed from the outset because despite you being right that only two options were available there was too much, contradictory, interpretation of what Leave meant. Everyone who voted Remain voted for exactly the same thing. That clearly wasn't the case with Leavers or we'd be Out by now. Either the deal should have been decided on before the vote or it should have been a preferential vote system. Now that is only achievable with a People's Vote which doesn't have to be A vs B but could be preferential. 3. Should any vote be one time only if the situation changes? Even if you genuinely believed this was absolute, wouldn't some extreme situations merit a rethink? The gap between the last two general elections was shorter than the gap between theoretical referendums. I can't think of any other situation in life you carry on blindly if given an opportunity to turn round just because you initially went with your gut. Now that to me IS insanity and the bit I find hardest to comprehend. I booked my ticket but the plane only has one wing but I'll carry on regardless... There may be costs but you can back out of everything in life if you think it's not working, jobs, houses, marriages but not Brexit? 4. I think everyone agrees it's a mess and don't think for a second Remain would walk it in a second referendum but I can't see another way out the deadlock. Certainly not another way that doesn't involve huge losses of face for someone/some party. It seems an easy out "I didn't want a second referendum but (mps, Europe, PM or insert bad guy) has forced us to. It's not (my) fault so vote in Referendum and get your way the very next day without delay". A People's Vote shouldn't be a Remain vehicle but a democratic one. A fear of a change of result is not an excuse as that means we're actually ignoring the will of the people just because it's changed. Much like opinions change on governments, capital punishment, womens votes, slavery... I think I'd be Leave too if I could get everything I wanted, but I know that's not how the World works. I'd hope now more people are wise to the reality of it all but think they'd still be the Leave means Leave regardless bunch and that kind of intellect (or lack thereof) genuinely scares me, especially when it comes from the Halls of Power... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 10 minutes ago, tinker said: Crashing out is not an option unless your next option is suicide and or nuclear war. WTO terms give us the worst terms anyone has , on those terms medication and certain foods run out and our gas price spirals out of control. Only our enemies would want that to happen . VT is in satire overdrive tonight I see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted March 22, 2019 Moderator Share Posted March 22, 2019 Somebody earlier was commenting on May's motivation - whether what's most important to her is the country, the party or her career etc. I'm increasingly convinced that her only motivation, the only thing that matters to her, is being right. Being proved right and having been right. She knows what No Deal is, she knows the damage that most of the options now open to us will do to her party and politics in this country, she knows the risks of infuriating the EU, of infuriating UK industry, of infuriating unions and of ignoring the other issues that face the UK - she simply does not care, those things do not matter, you don't matter, I don't matter and MP's don't matter - the only thing that appears to matter to this woman is that she is right. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 25 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: Somebody earlier was commenting on May's motivation - whether what's most important to her is the country, the party or her career etc. I'm increasingly convinced that her only motivation, the only thing that matters to her, is being right. Being proved right and having been right. She knows what No Deal is, she knows the damage that most of the options now open to us will do to her party and politics in this country, she knows the risks of infuriating the EU, of infuriating UK industry, of infuriating unions and of ignoring the other issues that face the UK - she simply does not care, those things do not matter, you don't matter, I don't matter and MP's don't matter - the only thing that appears to matter to this woman is that she is right. Dunno , it sounds like she is in her last days .. yeah I know we’ve been saying that since the election , but I think this time it’s for real, even her whip and deputy PM are briefing agaisnt her Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post peterms Posted March 22, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted March 22, 2019 One of those areas where you don't want to depend on a just-in-time supply chain. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 5 hours ago, markavfc40 said: This has almost 2 million signatures now. Anyone know what the record is for one of these online petitions? 4m according to this. Quote This latest petition is not yet the biggest call for the government to put aside the result of the 2016 referendum. A petition launched before the referendum, calling on the government to run a second referendum if the vote for the winning side was less than 60% on a turnout of less than 75% got little attention before the vote but more than 4 million signatures afterwards. The creator of that petition, William Oliver Healey, was a leave voter, who later expressed frustration that his petition had been “hijacked” by remainers. “This petition was created at a time (over a month ago) when it was looking unlikely that leave were going to win, with the intention of making it harder for remain to further shackle us to the EU,” he wrote on Facebook. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amsterdam_Neil_D Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 3 hours ago, peterms said: One of those areas where you don't want to depend on a just-in-time supply chain. Another industry that will be completely wiped out if we have no deal. A spokesman for the industry stated "We have to fold, there is no other option" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 3 minutes ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said: Another industry that will be completely wiped out if we have no deal. A spokesman for the industry stated "We have to fold, there is no other option" We have to tackle the impending problems in the cistern. We've had two votes without solving it, we can't fail a turd time. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NurembergVillan Posted March 22, 2019 Moderator Share Posted March 22, 2019 Her strict religious upbringing now being inflicted upon the nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desensitized43 Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 59 minutes ago, NurembergVillan said: Her strict religious upbringing now being inflicted upon the nation. When I read this yesterday it reminded very much of a scene in Downfall. Where Hitler was knowingly ordering little kids to their death. His inner circle were divided and suddenly Goebbels pipes up with words to the effect of "the people voted for this, they gave us a mandate" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 24 minutes ago, desensitized43 said: When I read this yesterday it reminded very much of a scene in Downfall I suspect Treez sees it more like Skyfall. Resolute defence of the nation against threatening outsiders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted March 22, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted March 22, 2019 1 hour ago, NurembergVillan said: Her strict religious upbringing now being inflicted upon the nation. Well at least we know what it'd be like if the government was run by Pinhead. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 Grauniad politics live blog: Quote Pennycook asks Kwarteng to confirm there will be a meaningful vote next week. He asks how the government will comply with the speaker’s ruling that the motion must be different. When will the government publish the necessary secondary legislation? Can the minister confirm that, if MPs vote down the deal, it will not be government policy to leave the EU without a deal? And what process will the government follow to allow MPs to choose a way forward? Quote Kwarteng is replying to Pennycook. He says it is the government’s “full intention” to bring the meaningful vote to the house. (But he does not say when.) He ignores the rest of Pennycook’s questions. Typical. They don't know what they're doing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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