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Keinan Davis


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34 minutes ago, lexicon said:

Well that kinda cheapens your argument a bit, mate, in fairness. 

Leeds had pretty much none of the game and the only reason Man City didn't score a hatful was that their forward line were having a rancid off-day. They carved them open time and again and just couldn't finish. Leeds didn't deserve the win or play well. 

Also, I don't think it's helpful to use outliers like that match to try and prove a point - it's like when people say that 'well Messi played at 18, so why can't our kids do that?' - it just doesn't work for me. 

Fulham, Brighton, Burnley and West Brom have all beat and/or held " The Champions ", we beat them 7 - 2, before they went to absolute shit ( relatively ).

Sometimes people should just admit when we chucked a game away ffs . We didn't get beat because we were facing " The Champions " and they were so good.

As many a time this season, most of our losses/draws have been down to our own shite decision making and/or unforced errors.

Leeds being outplayed, carved open etc and still getting a result would have been praised on here, if it were us, due to opposition. We weren't even being carved open, we were giving them the ball poorly. The point still remains, making it seem like we have " no right " to get a result due to who we are playing is false representation of the ACTUAL match.

As I said in an earlier post, I'm pretty sure most of us expected nothing from the game prior to it.

Will state again, I'm happy with our overall progress, but the comments are purely based on a game by game basis.

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4 hours ago, barry'sboots said:

And that is what most on here, the Dean Smith thread and the match thread just don't understand.  He played last Sunday and had an impact and even you - the Chairman of the anti-KD club - recognised this and said that you were hoping he would start the Liverpool game.

Why do we have to accept this?  We maybe have to accept that Smith doesn't want to play him but that doesn't mean we can't question Smith's decisions in this respect?

The reason why you have to accept it is because you have no choice, which you answered yourself.  Yeah you can keep questioning him on here about it, and I’m fine with, keeping going as long as you want but when all the evidence suggests its never going to change what Dean does do you give up on it.

Do I think Dean will play two up top in the future? Yes most possibly over the coming years.  Do we think that KD will be part of that based on Smiths usage of him, most definitely not.

Go for keep talking about KD game after game but when we are in our poorest form, player after player is injured and KD still doesn’t get a role or even into a two up top when even I thought we should and I’m his biggest critic.  At what point don’t you realise it’s never going to happen.

I’m just curious?  I’m not trying to be prick at all.  We know you and others have been saying and I’ve been vocal in backing but even against Newcastle, Smith did two up front later on and it wasn’t KD it was El Ghazi.  

Smith seems to think less of Davis than I do.  He has said he likes him, so it has to be something else then because he isn’t playing him in our worst of times.  I don’t know why either, maybe something Smith and the coaches aren’t seeing in training.  I don’t know, but if he doesn’t get a start or even come on the following game after that performance against Fulham then he’s never going to have a chance is he?  I think you guys are flogging a dead horse on this one now but yeah keep questioning I have no issue just not seeing what you are getting from it.

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2 hours ago, villalad21 said:

You may rate him you may not rate him but players should be rewarded for playing well.

The fact that Barkley who is not even ours and haven't even looked like putting the effort levels in for months gets on ahead of Keinan who works his socks off every game and even came up with an assist and great play in the last game is madness.

Bizarrely I’m not disagreeing with you so I can only imagine it has to be something else is the problem.  Maybe he just doesn’t deliver in training, who knows.  To be fair I can’t think Barkley doing much in training either but something is going on that all our other players are getting time apart from KD.  That suggests something non-game time is happening with KD.

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Smith made the call. Barkley was brilliant in the home game against Liverpool, maybe he thought he might make an impact against them again. The only problem I have is that we gave a world class player like TAA the time and space to get the shot away. But for that we wouild have got a respectable draw. 

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4 hours ago, WooJung said:

But that's the point really, isn't it? Is Davis being out of favor to this extent justified, even after his impact last week? 

Is it worth being so obstinate with something that visibly isn't working?

It looks like Deano is limiting his own options even when he doesn't have many. He might have an excellent reason for it. I can't see it, especially after last week's game.

I don’t know the answer. See my reply above.  The only thing I can think is that Davis was poor in training this week or there is some off the field issue, like why Bale doesn’t get much time at Spurs kind of thing.  Something more than what he can possibly do on the pitch.

I don’t believe any manager limits their options without a reason.  So it’s that reason I’m interested in and I doubt it’s about formation or tactics in the case of Davis as discussed before.

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Barkley was playing so high he was to all intents and purposes playing as a CF, coupled with fact he wasn’t tracking back. Therefore I can’t see we would have lost any structural solidity if KD had been on instead of him. 

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I don't think even the most pro Keinan admirers on here think he is going to turn into prime Drogba, I think we all know he has limitations (scoring being the obvious one and crucially the most important thing as a striker) - we ALL get that. But what we are saying is that he has other attributes to his game that could give us a better chance of winning / playing better football.

I do think Smith is a fan (regardless of his lack of opportunities) but he seems adamant that we will play 4-3-3 and that Watkins is the main striker and that's that. When Grealish plays this is fine, cos he is that good he lifts us from being a relegation-battling team to a European contender but without him though this formation / team is not working so why not try something new? 

That's all a few of us are saying.

I personally would have started him yesterday let alone bring him on and yes we can say we we're a fraction away from picking up a point at Anfield (the Trez shot) and to be honest the game looked like it was peetering out for a draw but we were terrible for large parts of the game and Traore n Trez were a big reason for this. 

So frustrating because we're about 3/4 players away from being top 8 no problem (probably higher).

 

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26 minutes ago, eholm said:

Barkley was playing so high he was to all intents and purposes playing as a CF, coupled with fact he wasn’t tracking back. Therefore I can’t see we would have lost any structural solidity if KD had been on instead of him. 

so why didnt he play KD instead.  It must be something Smith doesnt see in KD daily in training or something, that he prefers to play Ross whose poor than KD.

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20 minutes ago, WakefieldVillan said:

I don't think even the most pro Keinan admirers on here think he is going to turn into prime Drogba, I think we all know he has limitations (scoring being the obvious one and crucially the most important thing as a striker) - we ALL get that. But what we are saying is that he has other attributes to his game that could give us a better chance of winning / playing better football.

On a general basis I dont agree to your last sentence, I think on the whole when he has played for Villa he has been poor.  He was great for 15 mins against Fulham I agree and deserved a start against Liverpool yesterday but in his career for Villa he has been a poor player.

21 minutes ago, WakefieldVillan said:

I do think Smith is a fan (regardless of his lack of opportunities) but he seems adamant that we will play 4-3-3 and that Watkins is the main striker and that's that.

Yet despite him being a fan he doesnt play him....why!  Against Newcastle he had at the end El Ghazi and Watkins playing as a front two and we all commented about that after the game.  Even when Ollie has looked tired since the New Year, KD has basically not been brought on to give Ollie even 15 minutes of rest.  Even yesterday where is almost seemed like Ross was playing up top that Smith didnt choose KD instead.  That despite players like El Ghazi, Traore and Trez having really poor performances recently that KD doesnt get time.  It seems more than the 433 issue.

25 minutes ago, WakefieldVillan said:

I personally would have started him yesterday let alone bring him on and yes we can say we we're a fraction away from picking up a point at Anfield (the Trez shot) and to be honest the game looked like it was peetering out for a draw but we were terrible for large parts of the game and Traore n Trez were a big reason for this

We were so close to that draw yesterday, although I didnt think we deserved it, it should've been secured but that wouldnt have taken the issue of how we played and yet still KD got no time.

26 minutes ago, WakefieldVillan said:

So frustrating because we're about 3/4 players away from being top 8 no problem (probably higher).

Agreed.  When our squad has been stretched that's when it has shown and that's why some of us have laughed when some on here question about Smith maybe being replaced or he's been poor.  The performances have been poor lately, there is no argument with that but with our first team looking knackered and some injuries like Jack we are relying on players like Trez, Ross, El Ghazi and Traore is never going to get you higher

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6 hours ago, tom_avfc said:

If he plays Davis and we get completely overrun by a team that have won 4 of their last 5 games in all competitions then the same people would be on here complaining.

It’s the same with the likes of Nakamba. Everyone is demanding he starts games as if he’s the new Makelele until he plays and everyone realises he isn’t very good.

Davis had a good 20 minute cameo against a tiring Championship level side and now he’s like a prime Benteke in some people’s eyes.

Our squad is still miles away from where a lot of people seem to want us to finish. We have a very good defence, a world class creative midfielder and a very good striker. Other than that I don’t think any of our players get into any of the teams above us and a fair few would struggle to get minutes at any club in the league.

Davis’ average level of performance this season has been nowhere near good enough to suggest he’s ever going to be a starting premier league striker. One assist doesn’t make me think he should be starting games.

Could have brought him on with 10 to go but it wouldn’t have surprised me if we’d then got beat 3 or 4-1. The way some people are talking on here bringing Davis on would have been a guaranteed Villa victory.

As it is we lost a game against a very good team that have a decent chance of making the top four. Typical for us to concede that last minute great finish against a team that before yesterday had managed over 100 shots in their 6 games at home this year with only 1 goal.

People are not expecting Davis to come on and automatically win us matches though. People are rather saying that with our current squad he is the only real player we have to change our attacking system when it isn't working (as has been the case systematically for about 2 months). People don't think that we're bringing on the new Drogba, people just think we're bringing on someone who will offer us more than Barkley or El Ghazi off the bench. 

And I'm not sure how you can talk about his average level of performance, he's had about 100 minutes of league football all season, playing 8 minutes here and there against teams who had already parked the bus. Still managed to register an assist in that time, for what it's worth. 

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Updating some stats I posted a while ago, it appears Keinan’s impact on the outcome depends massively on making the change early:

Number of times KD brought on before the 80-minute mark: 14 PL games (since start of 19/20).

Villa score following Keinan’s introduction: 7/14

Villa increase points haul following Keinan’s introduction: 4/14

(By contrast, the numbers for bringing him on AFTER the 80-minute mark are 0/9 for goals and 0/9 for points increase. It rather suggests, if you are going to bring him on, it pays to give him 15-20 minutes rather than 5). 

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4 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Fulham, Brighton, Burnley and West Brom have all beat and/or held " The Champions ", we beat them 7 - 2, before they went to absolute shit ( relatively ).

Sometimes people should just admit when we chucked a game away ffs . We didn't get beat because we were facing " The Champions " and they were so good.

As many a time this season, most of our losses/draws have been down to our own shite decision making and/or unforced errors.

Leeds being outplayed, carved open etc and still getting a result would have been praised on here, if it were us, due to opposition. We weren't even being carved open, we were giving them the ball poorly. The point still remains, making it seem like we have " no right " to get a result due to who we are playing is false representation of the ACTUAL match.

As I said in an earlier post, I'm pretty sure most of us expected nothing from the game prior to it.

Will state again, I'm happy with our overall progress, but the comments are purely based on a game by game basis.

I'm not saying we played well tbf - but I'm not upset about the game yesterday either because I didn't expect us to get anything out of it. 

There have been a lot of good things to take out of this season and while we're limping to the finish line a bit, we've done better than expected in a lot of ways. Europe was pie in the sky last September and was never a requirement this year. I'm excited for the summer. 

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8 hours ago, tom_avfc said:

If he plays Davis and we get completely overrun by a team that have won 4 of their last 5 games in all competitions then the same people would be on here complaining.

It’s the same with the likes of Nakamba. Everyone is demanding he starts games as if he’s the new Makelele until he plays and everyone realises he isn’t very good.

Davis had a good 20 minute cameo against a tiring Championship level side and now he’s like a prime Benteke in some people’s eyes.

Our squad is still miles away from where a lot of people seem to want us to finish. We have a very good defence, a world class creative midfielder and a very good striker. Other than that I don’t think any of our players get into any of the teams above us and a fair few would struggle to get minutes at any club in the league.

Davis’ average level of performance this season has been nowhere near good enough to suggest he’s ever going to be a starting premier league striker. One assist doesn’t make me think he should be starting games.

Could have brought him on with 10 to go but it wouldn’t have surprised me if we’d then got beat 3 or 4-1. The way some people are talking on here bringing Davis on would have been a guaranteed Villa victory.

As it is we lost a game against a very good team that have a decent chance of making the top four. Typical for us to concede that last minute great finish against a team that before yesterday had managed over 100 shots in their 6 games at home this year with only 1 goal.

So, was in light of your comments, (which have a point).... was Traore or Sanson worthwhile signings?

Personally, I feel the Sanson money, could have used towards that Makalele type and Luiz and McGinn deployed further forward......I don't know why we signed Sanson.

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3 hours ago, PaulC said:

Smith made the call. Barkley was brilliant in the home game against Liverpool, maybe he thought he might make an impact against them again. The only problem I have is that we gave a world class player like TAA the time and space to get the shot away. But for that we wouild have got a respectable draw. 

Closing down is not our best forte, sure we do it, but not often enough, bit hit & miss....we are more interested in playing with the ball.

.

 

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6 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Fulham, Brighton, Burnley and West Brom have all beat and/or held " The Champions ", we beat them 7 - 2, before they went to absolute shit ( relatively ).

Sometimes people should just admit when we chucked a game away ffs . We didn't get beat because we were facing " The Champions " and they were so good.

As many a time this season, most of our losses/draws have been down to our own shite decision making and/or unforced errors.

Leeds being outplayed, carved open etc and still getting a result would have been praised on here, if it were us, due to opposition. We weren't even being carved open, we were giving them the ball poorly. The point still remains, making it seem like we have " no right " to get a result due to who we are playing is false representation of the ACTUAL match.

As I said in an earlier post, I'm pretty sure most of us expected nothing from the game prior to it.

Will state again, I'm happy with our overall progress, but the comments are purely based on a game by game basis.

I didn't think we would get anything from the game, simply because, we give the ball away too much, or fail to retain it in a duel.....we allow teams to secure the initiative too easily....particularly in the last 10-15 games.

I was happy we were 1-0 but I thought it was against the run of play, as they had many opportunities.

On the Barkley thing, I think Dean feels obliged to play him, after declaring, bullishly, that he would get him in contention for the Euro's.

Edited by TRO
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6 hours ago, tom_avfc said:

I kind of understand the desire to try something different but this 100% conviction that it would be any better is the issue I have. I don’t think Trez, Traore or El Ghazi are very good either. They may still be better than the alternatives though and I’m happy to trust Smith that that is the case.

The Nakamba example is probably the clearest one for me. He doesn’t play a few games in a row and we don’t perform so people are calling for him to start games. He plays a game and everybody realises he’s nowhere near good enough and worse than the other options.

There’s as good a chance that we get comfortably beaten if we change system and start Davis as there is that we’d have got anything out of the game.

As it turned out we went with our usual system and we’re pretty close to picking up a decent point and on another day Trez’s shot goes in and we win the game.

I said I’d have probably given Davis a few minutes (probably rather than bringing on Barkley) but I don’t have any real confidence that he’d have added much. That’s based on his entire time at Villa rather than one 20 minute cameo against a Championship team in which he achieved his only premier league goal contribution so far.

I don't think Nakamba is a particularly good player, but he does do the fundamental thing that a CDM is expected to do, stop the opposition in their passages of play....what is required is a better and more complete version, one who is good in the air and can pass and move comfortably with the ball......what we are doing right now is deploying players there who are not natural CDM's.

I was quite surprised when we bought Sanson, another 8 or10 .we have them already in the squad.

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41 minutes ago, TRO said:

So, was in light of your comments, (which have a point).... was Traore or Sanson worthwhile signings?

Personally, I feel the Sanson money, could have used towards that Makalele type and Luiz and McGinn deployed further forward......I don't know why we signed Sanson.

Sanson is far too early to judge. Hardly seen him play and he’s had no time to settle.

Traore on the other hand was not a worthwhile signing for me. We need far better than him but he plays in a position where you generally get what you pay for more than anywhere else. We need a top quality right winger not another punt in the summer.

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2 minutes ago, tom_avfc said:

Sanson is far too early to judge. Hardly seen him play and he’s had no time to settle.

Traore on the other hand was not a worthwhile signing for me. We need far better than him but he plays in a position where you generally get what you pay for more than anywhere else. We need a top quality right winger not another punt in the summer.

Would Bowen have been better? Or Raphina.....More or less the same price.

did Lingard need time to settle?

I think we make too many excuses.

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25 minutes ago, TRO said:

Would Bowen have been better? Or Raphina.....More or less the same price.

did Lingard need time to settle?

I think we make too many excuses.

But you can say players that are taking time to settle like Werner, Havertz, Benrhama or you can say players like Bowen, Raphina....I think you are using a false narrative on that one.

Lingard....I’m sorry but I would guess very few would’ve seen that loan being such a success given his recent years at Man U.

Anyway some players settle quickly, some don’t for various reasons

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50 minutes ago, nick76 said:

But you can say players that are taking time to settle like Werner, Havertz, Benrhama or you can say players like Bowen, Raphina....I think you are using a false narrative on that one.

Lingard....I’m sorry but I would guess very few would’ve seen that loan being such a success given his recent years at Man U.

Anyway some players settle quickly, some don’t for various reasons

This is where research or due dilligence comes in.

but yeah, luck does play a part as does coming in to a successful or rounded team.

Edited by TRO
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