TRO Posted March 4, 2021 Share Posted March 4, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, AvfcRigo82 said: We will never know. I think a few minutes in games towards the end doesn't do any justice. However, of those small pockets of play he has featured in this season, I still seen enough in those minutes to know that yes, we do have a player here for sure, just frustring (especially for him) that he does not get a chance or even given longer to show what he can actually do. I think the poor lad comes in for a tonne of unfair critism and written off when none of us have actually really see him start or even complete 90 minutes in the PL yet. I think to play 1 up front, the player has to be blessed with so many attributes and they are as rare as Rocking Horse Manure. I think to move Ollie to the wing is counter productive, we are basically saying he is not good enough and I think he is, but.....we are working him too hard and asking him to do, too much running. Strikers in the main, are box men....they do all their best work in the box, Ollie is being asked to run the channels on both sides and score goals....Ollie IMO should spend more time in the middle and in the box. I also think as a team we ball watch too much and are not as aware of our positioning v opponents as we should be.....Our team should know Ollie will be in the box, when they plan a cross, but so often the crosses are wasted. Ollie Watkins has an unbelieveable work rate and he is such a willing runner, but I have a suspicion, for his own good, he needs to be a bit more selfish and stay in the danger zone.....He is inadvertently diluting his own effectiveness, IMV Edited March 4, 2021 by TRO 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 On 04/03/2021 at 12:15, tom_avfc said: Does he have real potential though? Last season in 820 minutes of football he managed one goal against a Brighton reserve team in the cup. In 2017/18 he managed 2 goals in 1,500 minutes in the Championship. I've missed out the season in between and the current season as he's never really had a run of minutes but the stats aren't any better for those. That's 3 goals in almost 26 games worth of football. I know its not all about goals and a fair few of those minutes will have been as a late sub but a striker as unlikely to score a goal as that isn't showing real potential to me. He might move on to have a career at a mid to lower table Championship team but he's 23 years old now and it wouldn't surprise me if he had to drop to a lower level than that to find regular first team football. Well we've actively avoided getting in a back up striker for two windows now so clearly the management rate Davis although not enough to give him significant minutes in games we're losing like Wednesday. Last summer I don't believe we'd have just passed up on Ollie if say Calum Wilson had agreed to sign for us so we were certainly in for two out and out strikers but then after the strategy seemed to change and we were o.k with Traore as a sort of CF back up if needs be. Could've easily got in another striker in Jan window if we really wanted to especailly given window's been shut for over a month and Wes is still a good few weeks away from being involved. If Davis gets another knock we're back to no out and out strikers on the bench again unless we stick Louie Barry on there which I wouldn't be against although think he's been injured himself since the Liverpool cup game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 20 hours ago, TRO said: I think to play 1 up front, the player has to be blessed with so many attributes and they are as rare as Rocking Horse Manure. I think to move Ollie to the wing is counter productive, we are basically saying he is not good enough and I think he is, but.....we are working him too hard and asking him to do, too much running. Strikers in the main, are box men....they do all their best work in the box, Ollie is being asked to run the channels on both sides and score goals....Ollie IMO should spend more time in the middle and in the box. I also think as a team we ball watch too much and are not as aware of our positioning v opponents as we should be.....Our team should know Ollie will be in the box, when they plan a cross, but so often the crosses are wasted. Ollie Watkins has an unbelieveable work rate and he is such a willing runner, but I have a suspicion, for his own good, he needs to be a bit more selfish and stay in the danger zone.....He is inadvertently diluting his own effectiveness, IMV I agree with all that. Hes played every game and works twice as hard as anybody else. its too much he will get injured before long. We need to use him more like Rodgers does with Vardy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 3 minutes ago, PaulC said: I agree with all that. Hes played every game and works twice as hard as anybody else. its too much he will get injured before long. We need to use him more like Rodgers does with Vardy. It’s why I’m so intrigued what happens when Wes is back. Dean says Wes is in full contact training now so we may see some of him at the end of March/early April and while we won’t see the best of Wes until next season we may see some glances this season of Deans intentions. Dont care about fans views on Wes yet. Some like him, some don’t, some think he’ll be out, some think he’ll at best be back up, some an alternative to Ollie, some a different position slightly to Ollie maybe even playing two up top. All complete guess work by fans, that’s why it’ll be so intriguing to see what Dean uses him for. Will he change formation? Unlikely but might but unlikely so will Wes just be back up....I’m not convinced but I also don’t see Ollie getting less game time because he’s so good. It’ll be interesting....until then fans will be guessing based on their opinion of Wes and how he was 15 months ago. Nobody knows how Dean will use him but it’ll definitely push Davis to third choice pushing him more likely to leave in the summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 19 minutes ago, nick76 said: It’s why I’m so intrigued what happens when Wes is back. Dean says Wes is in full contact training now so we may see some of him at the end of March/early April and while we won’t see the best of Wes until next season we may see some glances this season of Deans intentions. Dont care about fans views on Wes yet. Some like him, some don’t, some think he’ll be out, some think he’ll at best be back up, some an alternative to Ollie, some a different position slightly to Ollie maybe even playing two up top. All complete guess work by fans, that’s why it’ll be so intriguing to see what Dean uses him for. Will he change formation? Unlikely but might but unlikely so will Wes just be back up....I’m not convinced but I also don’t see Ollie getting less game time because he’s so good. It’ll be interesting....until then fans will be guessing based on their opinion of Wes and how he was 15 months ago. Nobody knows how Dean will use him but it’ll definitely push Davis to third choice pushing him more likely to leave in the summer. Yes we could really do with Wes back. I dont think he would go to 2 up top but he would be more inclined to use him than Davis. Next season if he can get back to what he was then hes a great option. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 Tonight to me just proved Davis has no future at this club. A game that we could've probably done with something different upfront, somebody to hold the ball up. Additionally Ollie looked knackered and out of sorts. If any time was calling out for Davis to come on it was tonight and apologies if he wasnt fit or something but I havent heard anything around that. He wasnt called on tonight to come on and help.......really says it all. Even I, yes me, thought Davis should come on tonight (we had no other options so seemed like the right thing to do). It wasnt Ollie's night and yes Ollie's deflection helped with our goal but before that I didnt see us scoring and Ollie was having a bad night by his normal high standards. Given we were also hoofing it, even Dean said in his post game analysis, it was worth a try......but he didnt bring on Davis. People on this forum rightly think that I dont have much faith in Davis, it looks like Smith has less faith than me seeing as I would've brought on Davis tonight. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 3 minutes ago, nick76 said: Tonight to me just proved Davis has no future at this club. A game that we could've probably done with something different upfront, somebody to hold the ball up. Additionally Ollie looked knackered and out of sorts. If any time was calling out for Davis to come on it was tonight and apologies if he wasnt fit or something but I havent heard anything around that. He wasnt called on tonight to come on and help.......really says it all. Even I, yes me, thought Davis should come on tonight (we had no other options so seemed like the right thing to do). It wasnt Ollie's night and yes Ollie's deflection helped with our goal but before that I didnt see us scoring and Ollie was having a bad night by his normal high standards. Given we were also hoofing it, even Dean said in his post game analysis, it was worth a try......but he didnt bring on Davis. People on this forum rightly think that I dont have much faith in Davis, it looks like Smith has less faith than me seeing as I would've brought on Davis tonight. I would have brought him on earlier than 10 mins to go too, which is what usually happens....it was a poor night for quality, we just couldn't keep hold of the ball. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thug Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 I agree, I think it’s telling that he didn’t come on even when Watkins puts in a performance like that. I really don’t know if it’s something to do with Smith believing there’s a chance Watkins might score no matter how bad he’s playing, or whether he just doesn’t rate Davis full stop. Seems Davis for Watkins is a sub we just would not see unless there is an injury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 32 minutes ago, Thug said: I agree, I think it’s telling that he didn’t come on even when Watkins puts in a performance like that. I really don’t know if it’s something to do with Smith believing there’s a chance Watkins might score no matter how bad he’s playing, or whether he just doesn’t rate Davis full stop. Seems Davis for Watkins is a sub we just would not see unless there is an injury. He doesn't want to play them both, seems the answer....and Davis just can't score and has lost Deans trust. Lets be fair here, you would only bring Keinean on to hold the ball up, which is something, I know.....but we need goals too. we have too many players like this who can do one thing, but not another.....we need quality. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eholm Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 Think this game proved what we all surmised about Dean’s trust/confidence in KD. We went 442 for last 25 mins when Barkley came on yet he pushed Anwar up front with Ollie. That, for me, says it all. If Keinan can’t get minutes when we play 442 then his time here is up. Season long loan next season may save his career here but I don’t think he will ever play for us again barring injuries. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwi1890 Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 Joelinton is an expensive version of Davis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thug Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 12 hours ago, gwi1890 said: Joelinton is an expensive version of Davis When you put it like that, it’s hard to disagree. A joelinton with an end product and We’d have been hammered last night. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May-Z Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 Watkins was poor and got dominated by Lascelles. I would have tried Davis up top and moved Watkins out wide instead of Trez (assuming a 442 was a no go) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 17 hours ago, eholm said: Think this game proved what we all surmised about Dean’s trust/confidence in KD. We went 442 for last 25 mins when Barkley came on yet he pushed Anwar up front with Ollie. That, for me, says it all. If Keinan can’t get minutes when we play 442 then his time here is up. Season long loan next season may save his career here but I don’t think he will ever play for us again barring injuries. After 10 pages of Wes V Davis debate you tell me this! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted March 14, 2021 Share Posted March 14, 2021 If Watkins gets injured Davis comes straight into the team, we knew Wesley wasn't going to be injured for most of the season yet still decided to go with Davis as our backup striker, could have easily signed a replacement if we wanted to but instead did not and gave him a three year contract. And of course we didn't play Davis and Watkins upfront together, only club that would play two strikers upfront like Davis and Watkins together as a front two in a 442 is Burnley. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted March 14, 2021 Share Posted March 14, 2021 2 minutes ago, useless said: If Watkins gets injured Davis comes straight into the team, we knew Wesley wasn't going to be injured for most of the season yet still decided to go with Davis as our backup striker, could have easily signed a replacement if we wanted to but instead did not and gave him a three year contract. And of course we didn't play Davis and Watkins upfront together, only club that would play two strikers upfront like Davis and Watkins together as a front two in a 442 is Burnley. The game for me, is a game of 2's 2 full backs - 2 centre backs- 2 wide men-2 central midfielders and 2 strikers......so why do we play with 1 striker? He must have no faith in the midfield, to play with 2. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted March 14, 2021 Share Posted March 14, 2021 Not many teams play 442 anymore, as a two man midfield is seen as being too much in danger of being overrun, maybe it will come back in fashion one day, will only take one team to be succesful with it and others will follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted March 14, 2021 Share Posted March 14, 2021 (edited) If you add up the total amount of minutes he's played in the league it comes to 2260 minutes, that's just over 25 games worth of football, and bearing mind most of that will be made up from ten minutes here and there, and 1499 of those 2260 minutes during his first season when he was only nineteen, in other words since that first season he's only played nine games worth of league football. I've still got high hopes for him as he's such a good all round footballer, so dependable on the ball, never gives it away, has some skill to his game as well, and a surprising burst of pace over short distances, can see him going on loan to the championship next season and doing well. Edited March 14, 2021 by useless Edit: If Grealish is out against Tottenham I'd actually play Davis upfront with Watkins on the left as a wide forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted March 14, 2021 Share Posted March 14, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, useless said: If you add up the total amount of minutes he's played in the league it comes to 2260 minutes, that's just over 25 games worth of football, and bearing mind most of that will be made up from ten minutes here and there, and 1499 of those 2260 minutes during his first season when he was only nineteen, in other words since that first season he's only played nine games worth of league football. I've still got high hopes for him as he's such a good all round footballer, so dependable on the ball, never gives it away, has some skill to his game as well, and a surprising burst of pace over short distances, can see him going on loan to the championship next season and doing well. but he is not an Ivan Toney is he?.....Keinan is a limited player, like many we have seen at VP.....We all know what he is good at, but its not enough. We all want him to do well, but we can't score a goal for him....I don't think he has the natural predatory instinct of a striker or shows the frustration outwardly, when he misses, like Ollie does.....is he himself, expecting to score? I don't know Keinan personally , but he strikes me from his demeanor, that not scoring, doesn't really bug him....its like he has got used to it. Edited March 14, 2021 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barry'sboots Posted March 14, 2021 Share Posted March 14, 2021 I was surprised to see Dean go with a diamond late on on Friday. I think this is the best way for us at the minute as I don't think we have effective wide players - AEG just wants to shoot all the time and is not a team player and Trez works his socks off but lacks quality. Would be really interesting to see a front 6 of: ----------------- Luiz ---------------- SJM -------------------- Sanson ---------------- Jack --------------- ---------- KD ---------- Ollie ----- Especially now Cash is back as he and Targett can provide decent width/crossing (certainly better than Trez and AEG!). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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