drat01 Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 What the hell is the number of posts got to do with anything? Why is it "disgusting"? - People picking their noses and eating it is disgusting Why the personal abuse to another poster just because he has a differing view than yours? He probably got on the homepage because he took the time and effort to write something up in a way for discussion rather than just abuse. I'm sure all of the other Villa web sites will welcome any Villa fan. I think you may find that a lot have a growing number of fans who are becoming more and more concerned. Using VT isn't something you have to do. An outrage? A total and utter over reaction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villacross Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 enigma-it may be that 1.2 or more players are lined up at circa 45k and as you say it is quite proper in my opinion for the captain to get top dollar. Let's hope that the case eh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atalbot01 Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 quote deleted by mods Whilst I may not agree with the article, I think that with your questioning technique ...I think you have crossed the line somewhat.... Its not an outrage, its his opinion... I dont agree with it, But his opinion is as valid as anyones on here, so why shouldnt he have a front page article....? Get a grip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted August 20, 2007 Moderator Share Posted August 20, 2007 Blandy-so do you have the opposite view on the points you claim are conjecture? ie 1. after this transfer window is closed, we will not have the smallest squad on record? 2. Barry earns more than £45k per week 2(2). The Club does not have a ceiling on wages. 3. The Club is prepared to carry a wages bill of £60mill pa or more in wages and pay its top players up to £80k per week 4. Our pay structure is not a barrier to attracting top-class players? to answer, Peter. 1. correct, I think we will not have the smallest squad on record by 1st September, but again that's just my conjecture. 2. I have no idea - my guess is as good as yours. But they are just guesses. 2(2). I have no idea - again, my guess is as good as yours. But they are just guesses. Neither of us know. and we certainly don't know what it is, if there is one. Or if it will be raised if necessary. 3. I'd guess not, right now. 4. I don't think that it's impossible to get top players for Villa. I feel that the club's immediate prospects, location, Country, wages, manager, longer term prospects and other factors all play a part in attracting players (or not). I don't agree with the article's conclusions, but I don't hold an exactly opposite view. I just feel that as one person's opinion based on how you see things, it's well explained. I just look at things differently, really. Perhaps a bit more hopefully, based on the things that matter to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElAvila Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 hmmm articles are posted on the front page because they are well written and thought out, not because of the number of posts someone has - Bicks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElAvila Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 :yawntastic: oh nad have a yellow card for spamming the forum - Bicks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinity-Tom Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 If the rather large assumption in this article were true then I would be in full agreement with the author, however, there is no factual basis for the belief that 45k is our wage limit let alone that Barry has been given this and therefore, I cannot agree with Mr Cross's view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted August 20, 2007 Moderator Share Posted August 20, 2007 some posts deleted purely because they relate to deleted posts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashingqwerty Posted August 20, 2007 VT Supporter Share Posted August 20, 2007 Maybe Martin O'Neill can “walk on water” and will be able to achieve success with the smallest senior squad ever seen at Villa Park. Or perhaps his mystic powers will be able to convince players to ignore the “lucre” and come to us for the joy of adulation from us Villa fans. i'm sorry but i think you will find we won the league using only 14 senior players. NEXT well written article but fundamentaly falwed and based on nothing but supposition i dont actually see one fact in there that can be verified and the one that is put forward is easily proved to be incorrect sorry but this is pure PFE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philosopher Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 So what if Barry's our captain, if 45K is the deal he's negotiated and he's happy with that, then I am. I am sure if we had the chance of signing someone like Sneijder we would offer more as I believe Sneijder to be a better player. We should pay what a player is worth. If Barry was worth more than 45K then I am sure his agent would have made sure Barry got more money. I can only see a club paying him more than that if they were desperate for him anyway, except West Ham of course, but they're playing silly buggers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villacross Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 Philosopher - I too think Schneider would have been a great signing but at certainly more than £45k / week. So if GB's contract has a "trigger" clause, presumably as "top-gun", he would be paid "top-dollar". I hope the other players would be happy with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 Philosopher - I too think Schneider would have been a great signing but at certainly more than £45k / week. So if GB's contract has a "trigger" clause, presumably as "top-gun", he would be paid "top-dollar". I hope the other players would be happy with this. The issue about other players' reactions is an important one. I think there is scope for causing a lot of discontent and undermining team spirit if differentials become too great, or if someone has a "top dog" clause. I think we all recognise it's not about the money per se (how many people can truthfully say there is something they plan to do and value doing that they can do on £55k a week but not on £45k?), it's about perceived status. And when pay is used as the measure of appreciation and status, keeping a collective team sprit becomes that bit harder. I imagine most players won't begrudge someone more money if they are really delivering, but to see someone get more money even when they are playing poorly, just because someone new has negotiated a higher rate, must be pretty divisive. The other point I think hasn't really come out in this thread, though I think it's been recognised before, is the problem of trying to move on players who are past their best and who are on wages that no-one else will match. If the wage structure promotes high wages, triggered increases, and has no provision for redcutions based on appearances, that spells trouble in my eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villacross Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 peterms-good points, we can obviouisly both see the pitfalls of "crude", inflexible pay structures and the inevitable "differentials" problems that have been the cause of so much industrial unrest in recent times. Also, I never mentioned in my post the views MON expressed earlier this year about a "performance related pay structure" that he wanted to introduce at the end of the season. Presumably it died? or was GB the only player that qualified for any bonus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 Now you mention it, I have some vague memory of MON's comments. Don't know what it meant or what happened, though. On the point about who qualifies for bonuses, I take your comment as tongue in cheek, but I very much hope it's not just one or two players. Performance pay is fraught with dangers. One danger is rewarding people unequally when the outcome has depended on all of them. The theory is that team efforts should attract team bonuses. If people feel that their efforts have led to someone else getting a bonus while they have been overlooked, then that has the potential to be massivly demotivating for them, while not being especially motivating for the people who get the money. Result - less effort next time, discontent, and no particular thanks or ectra effort from the people who get the handouts. PRP is a murky subject, and one where the actual outcomes often run counter to people's gut feelings. These schemes more often demoralise than motivate. I imagine the effect is even more marked in football, because I think the influx of crazy money, agents, and the abandonment of wage structures, have all combined to create a madhouse where no-one is thinking further than next week. Arsenal tried to think long term, but couldn't hold the line. Credit to them for trying. But we are now in an untenable situation where something has to give. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pelty Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Why is Randy Lerner being blamed for MON's shortcomings? It has been stated and stated time and again that MON has money to play with. He has not chosen to do so for reasons none can comprehend, yet this is Randy's fault? You apparently choose not to believe the General nor the MANAGER who have both stated that the owner backs the manager. Why? They are liars, I presume? Randy does not drive personnel acquisition. He never has nor will he ever do so. You are misguided in whom it is you choose to fault; the blame, if there is any, lies solely with MON... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QldVilla Posted August 21, 2007 VT Supporter Share Posted August 21, 2007 Oh dear what a panic the writer of this article has got himself into! Its all for nothing though. People seem to forget that the wage structure we have here at Villa Park under HDE and now under Lerner is set with the intention of keeping us out of debt. There is no point paying excessive wages (which is what the big clubs and most of those trying challange them are paying) to players that will accept a lower wage (refering to GB), or to past their prime players. MON has adopted a very workable strategy of investing in young hungry players, young players at any level cannot expect to earn as much as proven players in their prime. Therefore our current wage budget is very workable. Second do you not remember Darren Bent turning down an £80,000 a week contract from West Ham to play for Spurs at £50,000 a week! Another point is do we really want to be signing injury prone players, who are past their prime like Dyer on £60,000 a week contracts? West Ham are paying ridiculous sums in wages to secure players unlikely to take them further than mid table. Do you want villa to do that? Plus people must remember that Villa have spent 9.5 mill on Young and 8 mill on Reo-Coker, each one of those transfers is more than what West have spent on a single player, and in the case of Young he represents more talent than any of West Hams recent signings. In comparison to Man City, their highest transfer fee was the 8.8 mill on Bianchi, very similar figure to Young and Coker's fee. Man City have also invested heavily in Youth, however their young players are from the continent which makes sense, as Sven's work for the England national side has shown his style does not suit that of the English player. We must remember that MON is a British manager who is excellent at getting the best out of British players. Another point is that the hungry players, hungry to play football and win titles will alway chose the big clubs over the smaller ones even if the smaller one's offer more wages. The players that chose money over success are not welcome at Villa Park as far as I am concerned. In addition players that want to play football above all else would much rather come to a team like Villa where there is a greater chance of first team football then your Tottenham's and Newcastle's. Curtis Davies for example is likely to find himself stuck on the bench once Dawson and King return (if he were to go to Spurs) plus they have 4 other CB's, whereas at Villa we have Laursen (who won't be able to play twice a week) and Cahill who has yet to threaten Laursen or Mellberg for their places. So maybe, just maybe having a small squad makes us a more attractive option for young players as it means a little less competition and so a greater chance of winning a first team spot. As hungry players alway want first team football. The first two seasons of the five year plan is surely to achieve european qualification, that will allow us attract a higher class of player and to invest in Young player that can become future greats, as the last thing we want is to be signing up average players to long expensive contracts and then not being able to unload them as they will not accept a drop in wages (Remember to problems DO'L had getting rid of players like Hadji). This is why the investment in Youth has been the focus, None of the players we have been linked with are over 25, with the exception of Defoe and Wright-Phillp's who are better than your average and still only 26. We have every right to worry, but the fact remains MON and Lerner have done nothing wrong. The only player I was unhappy to see leave was Davis, but he didn't want to stay, he wanted first team football and was probably tapped up a little by Laurie Sanchez. All the rest that left were either not good enough (McCann), lazy (Djemba Twins), or whingers (Samuel). So we don't have a deep enough squad, at least we know the atmosphere in the dressing room is good, all the players want to play for Aston Villa and are hungry to do well. Getting the right players must be our focus, any players who are report to have a little class won't do. Almost every player in the Prem has class, but class means nothing without, hunger, desire and team spirit. Remember you don't suddenly became a top four Team overnight. People seem to forget that Chelsea were already in the Champs League and had their to two most important players when Abramavich's money came along, not to mention the only other club that had big spending power at the time was Man Utd. Judge the transfers situation on the 1st of Sept and stop bloody panicking! As that is our only real worry. Well said!! If there is a $45k salary cap, then it probably reflects our position financially. If the club carry out the plans they say they will, then further incomes streams will be found, and that cap (it it actually exists), will increase. The club is being run professionally and as a business, like everyone I would like to see more signings, but if we finish 7th or higher this season, then I will be happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spoonman Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Randy should press MON into buying players, its what the fans want, and the fans are the most important part of a club. Where will randy and MON be if we don't turn up for a game, the lads should know its not against them, but we want to step forward. Remember when DOL took over? We came 6th then fell apart over the next two seasons. MON arrives, we come 11th... then it starts to crumble again. Another year of my life spent hanging my head at the site of the prem table... least we're a point behind united Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramshackler Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Firstly it is based on the assumption that Barry is on the maximum, and secondly it seems to be asking why we, Aston Villa, absent from all european competition for nigh on 5 years are not spending as much on wages as the top 4 in the champions league... Does this guy want us to immediately offer mega money wages before we reach even the UEFA Cup?? That would be tantamount to a leeds style suicide! It is a five year plan, next step we must get to europe, then we will be able to attract a higher quality player and have more income to sustain higher wages. Next step after that will be champions league, where the real money will roll in and we can attract an even higher quality of player. post edited. people are allowed their own opinion, even if you disagree with it. Peter has explained his opinion and given reasons for it. if you disagree with it so much, how about you do the same instead of posting the moaning bits that have been edited. jc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c-krulak Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 General Krulak here: 1. Not even sure how to respond to this post...a post without any intellectual rigor or basis behind it. A post that regurgitates Richard Fitzgerald's comment that has been discussed by myself no less than 20 times...a comment that was NOT the Club's position and NOT one that even falls within his remit. A post that presupposes that Randy Lerner has put a "cap" on expenses for players and for the Club. If you are looking for a COMPLETE denial, you have got it!! Randy will support MON...simple as that. Let's face it, MON is in the best position to know what he needs for his Squad (now and for the future). He has scouts that also know what he wants and are out there doing their jobs. He knows he has an owner that will support him. Neither Randy, MON or I have ever said that one year after taking over the Club we would be challenging ManU day in and day out. We are not there yet...BUT, that IS the goal and we WILL get there! BUT, we will get there in a timeframe that makes sense...and that will be lasting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MYSTERYMAN Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 General Krulak here: 1. Not even sure how to respond to this post...a post without any intellectual rigor or basis behind it. A post that regurgitates Richard Fitzgerald's comment that has been discussed by myself no less than 20 times...a comment that was NOT the Club's position and NOT one that even falls within his remit. A post that presupposes that Randy Lerner has put a "cap" on expenses for players and for the Club. If you are looking for a COMPLETE denial, you have got it!! Randy will support MON...simple as that. Let's face it, MON is in the best position to know what he needs for his Squad (now and for the future). He has scouts that also know what he wants and are out there doing their jobs. He knows he has an owner that will support him. Neither Randy, MON or I have ever said that one year after taking over the Club we would be challenging ManU day in and day out. We are not there yet...BUT, that IS the goal and we WILL get there! BUT, we will get there in a timeframe that makes sense...and that will be lasting. Good response ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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