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Brazil- the greatest modern myth in Football?


VillaChris
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So after the horrible events in Paris last night didn't really feel like time for a big game of Football but I'd been watching the news coverage continually for a few hours so with midnight approaching I decided to at least put on Argentina-Brazil as a distraction.

Last night was a classic Brazil performance against a decent team. Just sit back, put men behind the ball, and lump the ball forward for Neymar to create something. No exaggeration to say Argentina (who are in poor form and were without Messi and Aguero) were completely dominant for the first hour and should've been more than 1 up, they played with fantasy and lovely ball playing in central midfield, Brazil did nothing of the sort.

The thing that gets me is every World cup we get the same old tired cliches from the press, the boys from Brazil, why can't England play the Brazilian way, look at all those world class Brazilian players...ignoring the fact there's 4-5 European teams better than them and a couple from other continents. They were lucky they had home advantage at the last World cup as that was never a last 4 team, two before have been quarter final defeats, same as in the Copa America so the level England used to be at....

So who are these World class Brazil players....Neymar yes although he does still go quiet in the big games imo although he has an impossible role for Brazil, has to carry the ball in midfield and finish the chances. Willian in good form for Chelsea but a hardworker who can attack and defend out wide and whip in a decent cross, depends if you think Beckham was world class or not I guess. Costa is playing very for Bayern Munich but is only a sub last night....David Luiz is one of the biggest travestys going....

Argentina have problems aswell which is harder to analysis as they actually produce excellent footballers to watch starting with Riquelme and now with the likes of Di Maria, Banega, Aguero, Messi etc, it's a shame they too have gone in defensive mode.

The big problem for Brazil is they have no attacking central midfield anymore...it's all defensive players who can cover and mark....Fernando, Fernandinho, Luiz Gustavo, Elias, Ramieres, all players who can run and mark but put them in the final third and it's a bit clueless. A while back they had Ronaldinho and Kaka around that area, it is a bit of a difference in quality.

So there you go they'll probably scrape qualification in 4th or something as teams like Ecuador and Chile are just better than them currently but as long as Dunga remains manager, I hope they don't qualify for the World Cup.

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I think they are living on legacy a bit now, the world class players they have are probably marcelo and neymar, with silva just behind. The rest of the team is functional but not exactly flair. It is discussed in the Brazilian press that after neymar the production line of mercurial talents seems to have stalled and it's a BIG issue. Does anyone remember the Nike cartoon to advertise the world cup? Starring Ronaldo (both) Rooney neymar and *cough* Howard amongst others? The plot line was some mad scientist created cloned versions of the world's best players which always made mechanically the best choice statistically on the field, which meant that they couldn't be beat. In the end the humans win because those ridiculous, 1 in a 100 skill or pass or shot attempts that we try are the moments that can blow away another team and the fans and what separates a world class player from a great player. The Brazil team now is full of 'great' players, but compared to the 2002 winning team they are incomparable with probably only neymar getting in or the gk. The 2002 team though has about 7 ATG's playing in some positions though!

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Thiago Silva dosen't get picked anymore as he had a few poor games in Copa America....good defender though and would imagine he'll be straight back in the team when Dunga is sent packing again.

Dani Alves has been world class although getting on now. Not quite as good as Cafu but not far off imo. Worth noting though he was 2nd choice behind Maicon at the last two world cups which was bonkers and also shows the managers Brazil appoint don't really have a clue.

Big Phil with his old pals act and mugs like Fred upfront and now Dunga ignoring likes of Coutinho and filling the squad with half of the Brazil league.

Don't get me wrong Argentina have problems aswell but their teams are always top heavy and not balanced. Actually last night they did look balanced as Di Maria was superb in the free 10 role but he will be put back on the wing when Messi is fit again.

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I think its become a bit of a myth. 58,62,70 and 82 they played a brand of football that was great on the eye but Neymar is the only player currently thats stands up with the greats and he will become one of the greatest ever Brazil players. 46 goals in 67 internationals is phenominal and he's still only 23. He will pass Pele's 77 by the end of his career. Also leading scorer in La Liga this season. Great player.

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Just looking on another thread and a Brazil fan on there says Neymar is suffering from a bit of Rooney syndrome when he plays for Brazil e.g the quality of players isn't as good as at Barca so he constantly comes deep to pick up the ball when he should be in the box more.

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I think the game changed and Brazil can't really play as they used to.  Player fitness levels have increased enough to allow for pressing which means the football Brazil played in 70 and 82 isn't really viable any more.   They are always going to be a major power in the world game, 200 million population (5th most populous country on Earth and easily the biggest population of the countries where football is the dominant sport) will see they always have a decent sized pool of raw talent. 

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There was a decent article in the Guardian a couple of days ago that made a similar point:

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/nov/12/brazil-world-cup-qualifer-argentina


What if Brazil failed to qualify for the World Cup? The prospect seems incredible but it is one that football may have to try to come to terms with. It is still a distant possibility but, given how awful the side have been at their last two major tournaments and given how they have started qualifying for Russia 2018, it is not as preposterous a scenario as it would once have seemed. With Argentina also stuttering off the blocks there will be an unexpected sense of anxiety about Thursday’s meeting in El Monumental.

It will still, you suspect, be some time before Brazil comes to terms with its World Cup. A new book by the journalist Jamil Chade, an extract of which can be read in the next issue of The Blizzard, details some of the financial outrages committed under the auspices of the tournament. It is a grim tale of bribery and overspending, of ludicrous follies being built in unsuitable locations that would be hilarious if it were not for the thought of how the hundreds of millions of pounds invested could have been spent in a country in which the gap between rich and poor is atrociously vast.

The most egregious example of overspending is the Estádio Nacional Mané Garrincha in Brasilia, built at a cost of £600m, making it the second most expensive stadium in the world after Wembley. A year on from the World Cup, it serves as government offices and a bus depot. These are the concrete examples of what Fifa’s culture of greed and irresponsibility have led to.

There are, as Chade explains, ongoing police investigations into the allegations of corruption, so at least there may at some point in the future be some sort of reconciliation to the financial legacy of the World Cup. The football legacy, though, remains weirdly unchallenged.

 

The World Cup was catastrophic for the image of Brazilian football not just because of the way they went out on that apocalyptic night in Belo Horizonte, but for the way they played throughout. They were arrogant, cynical and overly physical, immersed in the cult of Neymar, gripped by an overwhelming sense of entitlement that blinded them to their inadequacies until it was too late.

What was staggering was that the 7-1 defeat by Germany in that semi-final didn’t provoke change. Luiz Felipe Scolari moved on but was replaced as coach byDunga, another dinosaur. The result was a shambolic Copa América that saw them beaten by Colombia in the group stage before going out on penalties to Paraguay in the quarter-final. Neymar, his spirit apparently crushed by the expectation, lashed out after the Colombia defeat, but returns for the trip to Buenos Aires from the four-game suspension his petulance earned him.

Even that didn’t trigger a revolution against the structures of patronage that keep the CBF so locked in the past. Dunga remains in place. To nobody’s surprise, Brazil lost their opening qualifier 2-0 away to the Copa América champions, Chile– and yet the fact it wasn’t a surprise was itself telling; it was only Chile’s eighth victory over Brazil in 71 meetings. A 3-1 home win over Venezuela at least brought some respite, two goals coming from Willian, who must wonder what he’s done to deserve both his national and club sides collapsing so dismally while he continues to chug diligently up and down.

The major positive for Brazil is the form of Argentina. Brilliant in dispatching Paraguay 6-1 in the Copa América semi-final, they were laboured in losing on penalties to Chile in the final and have not yet recovered, a home defeat by Ecuador and a 0-0 draw in Paraguay leaving Gerardo Martino under serious pressure.

He is without Lionel Messi, Sergio Agüero, Carlos Tevez, Ezequiel Garay and Pablo Zabaleta, all injured. Although there are strong calls for Ángel Correa or Paulo Dybala to start, Martino’s innate conservatism probably means a front three of Ezequiel Lavezzi, Gonzalo Higuaín and Ángel Di María and a grim, attritional game with both sides looking to play on the break, beset by the neurosis of their waning continental status.

Dunga was at his grouchiest this week, complaining that the press hadn’t congratulated him on his 52nd birthday – it is a mark of how awkward he can be that nobody was sure whether he was joking. He is, anyway, engaged in his usual war with the media which, in Rio de Janeiro, has been critical of his treatment of the Botafogo goalkeeper Jefferson, relegated to second choice behind the Internacional 23-year-old Alisson.

More striking to English eyes is the total omission of Philippe Coutinho for Kaká, now 33 and playing for Orlando City in MLS. It is true he was instrumental in Brazil’s victory last time they played a World Cup qualifier away in Argentina, but that was seven years ago.

Perhaps it will work against a vulnerable Argentina, but it is not hard to see that selection as another example of Brazilian football living in the past.

Edited by LondonLax
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Brazil have a short-term disadvantage which is a long-term advantage, at least when compared to England, for example, which is that Brazil play in what is by far the hardest qualifying section in world football. There are really no easy games. Venezuela are the lowest-ranked team at 69 in the world, and Bolivia are at 67, but even they have qualities that make them tough opponents, like the incredible altitude in La Paz. 

The toughness of the qualifying increases the chances that they might fall short this time, but it will also force them to change sooner rather than later and abandon what isn't working. Compare that to England, who march through tedious qualifying games against teams of postmen and odd job men, never forced to improve, develop, or even really think about international football, and you see how it will work out better for them in the long run. 

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That's very true....the Commebol section is probably the hardest by miles if you measure the quality and world class players teams like Uruguay and Colombia have. Look at a team like Ecuador, never qualified for a world cup before 2002 and have made 3/4 and will make this one. Yes it's partly down to altitude which gives them really strong home form but the improvement has helped them develop players and you get really good ones now playing in the premier league and other euro leagues. Venezeula are starting to get like this aswell sending players abroad, they've just made a really poor appointment as coach as they'd improved a lot in last 10 years before this process.

I think people just look at the numbers, four teams out of 10 qualify with also a bye in a play off v New Zealand so it's really 50% ratio but the quality makes it a lot tougher than a group with Estonia and Faroes Islands.

Another big problem Brazil have is arrogance from media and fans. You think this country is bad...a few years back they all thought Brazil should win every game 5-0 particularly against most other South American sides. Hopefully the 7-1 humbling and early eliminations in the Copa have reduced that.

 

Currently Chile are the best team in South America. Players like Alexis, Vidal and possibly Medel would walk into the Brazil starting 11.

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Off topic slightly but the construction-development-legacy model of FIFA and the awarding of world cups is TAILOR MADE for corruption and why a country with a very developed football infrastructure like England only get say 1 in 6 world cups. If a country has no stadiums or facilities and they need to be build, those construction projects need money.... Money which is easy to skim off the top from. If we have England where all the stadiums are all built and the most that needs doing is a lick of paint here and there, there's no money floating around and no dodgy deals or scams to be struck. It's even coming out now Germany got the nod cos of a huge bung to fifa 

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  • 4 months later...

It is a total embarassment someone who's 36 in one months time is leading the line for Brazil.

I'm actually watching this and Paraguay have totally dominated, could easily be 2 or 3 nil up. Brazil are playing with 10 men as Fernandinho has been shocking in midfield given the ball away constantly. They have nothing in the final third without Neymar.

Y'know if they lose this they'll be in real danger, 7th after a third of the qualification. With Venezuela being so poor this time round you're looking at high points tallies to make top 4 and even play offs, probably 30 points for automatic qualification and 28 for 5th place. Brazil have 8 points so would need 7 wins from last 12 to get up to that.

They've already played two of their easiest home games aswell in Peru and Venezuela, teams above them still have to play them at home. Brazil still have to visit Ecuador, Colombia and Uruguay.

Just like when England missed out on euro 2008, I sense something is bubbling here and we could have one of the biggest football shocks in recent times. To me they deserve it for neglecting their football heritage and appointing frauds like Dunga.

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So 2-2 in the end....Dani Alves scored in 93rd minute.

Paraguay were dead on their feet for last 20 minutes, not helped by having to make two subs in first 50 minutes. Roque Santa Cruz aswell....thought he retired 4 years ago, can barely run 5 yards yet came on and had a great game.

So Dunga is even worse 2nd time than I thought, 1/3 games played and they're already out of the qualifying spots.:P It's an interesting year for them, another Copa America and then they have the Olympic football tournament, hosts and they've never won it so will be taking it seriously (they want to call up Neymar). Not sure Dunga is in charge of that team but I would be amazed if he lasts the summer as the results are abysmal.

BTW this is what Hulk did second half....

 

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Hulk is an absolute clown of a footballer, never ever got the hype about him

as for Brazil, I said it after 7-1 adn nothing happened but missing out on a World Cup might be best thing happen to them in long term. But they also need remove Dunga, they have Neymar, Costa, Coutinho, Willian, Oscar, Lucas Moura all really good attackers playing for top European teams and rarely plays some of them

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On 30/03/2016 at 12:01, Zatman said:

Hulk is an absolute clown of a footballer, never ever got the hype about him

as for Brazil, I said it after 7-1 adn nothing happened but missing out on a World Cup might be best thing happen to them in long term. But they also need remove Dunga, they have Neymar, Costa, Coutinho, Willian, Oscar, Lucas Moura all really good attackers playing for top European teams and rarely plays some of them

Of those only Neymar and Coutinho are really of the standard Brazil need. Willian is ok, Costa not a Brazil CF! and Oscar and Lucas average.

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Douglas Costa has been probably Bayern best player this season, Lucas Moura has always caused damage in Champions League games when he gets on and Willian has carried Chelsea this season

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Problem Brazil have is when Costa and William get marked out of games by opposition full backs (the Paraguay ones were excellent at shutting down space in the week) there's no one to run through the centre with the ball as they're all destroyers in there. Only 10 years ago Brazil had Ronaldinho and Kaka as options there, that's the big difference. Neymar can't do it all on his own seeing as he's needed at CF with their complete lack of options there.

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5 hours ago, Zatman said:

Douglas Costa has been probably Bayern best player this season, Lucas Moura has always caused damage in Champions League games when he gets on and Willian has carried Chelsea this season

Sorry my fault I'm getting mixed up with the costa's. I keep thinking Diego Costa as being a Brazil player not Spain. 

Edited by PaulC
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