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The Rémi Garde thread


KJT123

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I might be going against the grain but...

 

...I don't actually think Sherwood did that badly.  It's the cliché fine line between success and failure.  Of course, some games we were terrible in and some decisions made were awful.  However, we haven't looked like a team that should be rock bottom this season (IMO).  Sunderland have looked far, far worse and we only managed a draw against them.  That wasn't Sherwood's fault (again, IMO) - the players let us down.

His crime was not sticking to a system.  Not ever allowing a consistency within the team this season.  Even if he's right about not 'wanting' the players we signed, he should've at least tried to get some cohesion.

I think Garde will achieve this.  And, therefore, we will look better as a unit.  I'm not sure whether we can be saved from relegation (if I was to bet one way or the other right now, I'd be betting on us going down) but I'm sure we'll be more organised and, thus, more able to hold on to leads.

I disagree with the bolded.

Advocaat changed Sunderland at half time. They came back into the game then. That's how they got the result.

Sherwood changed nothing.

He didn't need to.  Toivonen took apart Sanchez in the midfield battle (Advocaat's change) but we still battered them.  It was ridiculous.  From memory, Richards missed an absolute sitter too.

I'm certainly not putting that on Sherwood.  Leicester, sure.  Stoke, sure.  Sunderland?  Nah.

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I still can't believe that there are people who actually believe this squad is bad enough to be cut adrift at the bottom of the table.

Nobody is expecting miracles. All we want is the team to have a bit of direction and look like they're remotely playing to their potential.

Sherwood had us far far short of that,

Not picking on you but you made a concise point so I wanted to ask a simple question if this is your thinking. You say we have a good enough squad to survive and it just needs direction and them playing to their potential so, if we are relegated, does this mean Garde failed and was another bad manager?

My issue is I DO think this squad is bad enough to be cut a drift, I genuinely do, and take no pleasure from it (I have a season ticket a few rows from the dugout so have to exper8this pain every few weeks!) but have seen very little individual quality in the players even if you put aside the team aspect.

 

I'm not certain that the squad is good enough to survive. I believe they are. But am I certain? No

But what I am certain of is that the squad is better than results have suggested so far this season and that that is down to mismanagement.

So will Garde have failed if we still go down? That is impossible to say right now. He's landed in the job in a very tough position. Technically speaking yes, he will have failed, because I imagine his remit is to keep us up. However, from this position I'm not entirely sure that makes him a bad manager. That will be totally dependant on what we see from him from now until the end of the season.

The squad isn't great, but I cannot fathom anyone who believes our league position accurately reflects the quality of the squad. Again, I'm not trying to say it is MUCH better than our league position, but I think it's nigh on unarguable that the squad is not as bad as 4 points in mid november. 

There are so many things that Sherwood did that has proved detrimental to the team. To suggest that he has gotten as much out of the squad as possible is just ignoring all of those things. Things like not playing Gil, the decline of effectiveness of Grealish, the weird and constantly changing formations, the misuse of personnel like Ayew, the setup of the defence, the inability to respond to anything the opposition manager does (Stoke, Leicester, Sunderland etc)

All of those things have effected us negatively. Just ONE of them could have made a difference. if we hadn't tactically imploded vs Leicester, for example, and held onto the victory we'd be 18th. If we'd reacted to Advocaat's changes at half time in the Sunderland game and beaten them we'd be 19th.

The margins are incredibly fine. I cannot be convinced that, under a better manager, we would STILL be in this position, which appears to be what KHV and possibly yourself are suggesting. Just one victory would see us 18th and a point from safety. I can't believe that anybody really thinks that has been beyond us so far this season.

If the argument is are we capable, or should we be, higher in the league than we are with more points then I can see a strong argument to agree with that. We could be 19th, 18th even 17th with a bit of luck/better management here and there. BUT, this also ignores the fact we've had a very easy start in most respects. If anyone is arguing that changing the manager makes no difference then I disagree with them, but it's whether it makes a significant difference. My belief, as much as I don't like it, is that the scope for Garde to improve is severely hampered by the quality in the squad. I think quibbling over 20th or 18th is kind of irrelevant when you still get relegated either way.

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I might be going against the grain but...

 

...I don't actually think Sherwood did that badly.  It's the cliché fine line between success and failure.  Of course, some games we were terrible in and some decisions made were awful.  However, we haven't looked like a team that should be rock bottom this season (IMO).  Sunderland have looked far, far worse and we only managed a draw against them.  That wasn't Sherwood's fault (again, IMO) - the players let us down.

His crime was not sticking to a system.  Not ever allowing a consistency within the team this season.  Even if he's right about not 'wanting' the players we signed, he should've at least tried to get some cohesion.

I think Garde will achieve this.  And, therefore, we will look better as a unit.  I'm not sure whether we can be saved from relegation (if I was to bet one way or the other right now, I'd be betting on us going down) but I'm sure we'll be more organised and, thus, more able to hold on to leads.

I disagree with the bolded.

Advocaat changed Sunderland at half time. They came back into the game then. That's how they got the result.

Sherwood changed nothing.

They were always going to come sprinting out the blocks at half time being behind, we were extremely comfortable in the first half and I had no issue with Sherwood not changing things and trusting the players to continue. The only reason they scored was due to Clark's very poor defending, we then had more than enough chances to win, the Sunderland result was definitely due to the players, imo of course.

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I might be going against the grain but...

 

...I don't actually think Sherwood did that badly.  It's the cliché fine line between success and failure.  Of course, some games we were terrible in and some decisions made were awful.  However, we haven't looked like a team that should be rock bottom this season (IMO).  Sunderland have looked far, far worse and we only managed a draw against them.  That wasn't Sherwood's fault (again, IMO) - the players let us down.

His crime was not sticking to a system.  Not ever allowing a consistency within the team this season.  Even if he's right about not 'wanting' the players we signed, he should've at least tried to get some cohesion.

I think Garde will achieve this.  And, therefore, we will look better as a unit.  I'm not sure whether we can be saved from relegation (if I was to bet one way or the other right now, I'd be betting on us going down) but I'm sure we'll be more organised and, thus, more able to hold on to leads.

I disagree with the bolded.

Advocaat changed Sunderland at half time. They came back into the game then. That's how they got the result.

Sherwood changed nothing.

They were always going to come sprinting out the blocks at half time being behind, we were extremely comfortable in the first half and I had no issue with Sherwood not changing things and trusting the players to continue. The only reason they scored was due to Clark's very poor defending, we then had more than enough chances to win, the Sunderland result was definitely due to the players, imo of course.

I had no issue with Sherwood not changing it at half time.

I had issues with, when Sunderland had obviously changed things and had got themselves into the game, Sherwood THEN keeping everything the same

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I still can't believe that there are people who actually believe this squad is bad enough to be cut adrift at the bottom of the table.

Nobody is expecting miracles. All we want is the team to have a bit of direction and look like they're remotely playing to their potential.

Sherwood had us far far short of that,

Not picking on you but you made a concise point so I wanted to ask a simple question if this is your thinking. You say we have a good enough squad to survive and it just needs direction and them playing to their potential so, if we are relegated, does this mean Garde failed and was another bad manager?

My issue is I DO think this squad is bad enough to be cut a drift, I genuinely do, and take no pleasure from it (I have a season ticket a few rows from the dugout so have to exper8this pain every few weeks!) but have seen very little individual quality in the players even if you put aside the team aspect.

 

I'm not certain that the squad is good enough to survive. I believe they are. But am I certain? No

But what I am certain of is that the squad is better than results have suggested so far this season and that that is down to mismanagement.

So will Garde have failed if we still go down? That is impossible to say right now. He's landed in the job in a very tough position. Technically speaking yes, he will have failed, because I imagine his remit is to keep us up. However, from this position I'm not entirely sure that makes him a bad manager. That will be totally dependant on what we see from him from now until the end of the season.

The squad isn't great, but I cannot fathom anyone who believes our league position accurately reflects the quality of the squad. Again, I'm not trying to say it is MUCH better than our league position, but I think it's nigh on unarguable that the squad is not as bad as 4 points in mid november. 

There are so many things that Sherwood did that has proved detrimental to the team. To suggest that he has gotten as much out of the squad as possible is just ignoring all of those things. Things like not playing Gil, the decline of effectiveness of Grealish, the weird and constantly changing formations, the misuse of personnel like Ayew, the setup of the defence, the inability to respond to anything the opposition manager does (Stoke, Leicester, Sunderland etc)

All of those things have effected us negatively. Just ONE of them could have made a difference. if we hadn't tactically imploded vs Leicester, for example, and held onto the victory we'd be 18th. If we'd reacted to Advocaat's changes at half time in the Sunderland game and beaten them we'd be 19th.

The margins are incredibly fine. I cannot be convinced that, under a better manager, we would STILL be in this position, which appears to be what KHV and possibly yourself are suggesting. Just one victory would see us 18th and a point from safety. I can't believe that anybody really thinks that has been beyond us so far this season.

If the argument is are we capable, or should we be, higher in the league than we are with more points then I can see a strong argument to agree with that. We could be 19th, 18th even 17th with a bit of luck/better management here and there. BUT, this also ignores the fact we've had a very easy start in most respects. If anyone is arguing that changing the manager makes no difference then I disagree with them, but it's whether it makes a significant difference. My belief, as much as I don't like it, is that the scope for Garde to improve is severely hampered by the quality in the squad. I think quibbling over 20th or 18th is kind of irrelevant when you still get relegated either way.

It's not irrelevant when that was the discussion that was taking place.

The argument being put forward was that we are where we are because of the quality of the players. We're not. That obviously contributed, but the poor management made it worse. That was the argument.

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I might be going against the grain but...

 

...I don't actually think Sherwood did that badly.  It's the cliché fine line between success and failure.  Of course, some games we were terrible in and some decisions made were awful.  However, we haven't looked like a team that should be rock bottom this season (IMO).  Sunderland have looked far, far worse and we only managed a draw against them.  That wasn't Sherwood's fault (again, IMO) - the players let us down.

His crime was not sticking to a system.  Not ever allowing a consistency within the team this season.  Even if he's right about not 'wanting' the players we signed, he should've at least tried to get some cohesion.

I think Garde will achieve this.  And, therefore, we will look better as a unit.  I'm not sure whether we can be saved from relegation (if I was to bet one way or the other right now, I'd be betting on us going down) but I'm sure we'll be more organised and, thus, more able to hold on to leads.

I disagree with the bolded.

Advocaat changed Sunderland at half time. They came back into the game then. That's how they got the result.

Sherwood changed nothing.

He didn't need to.  Toivonen took apart Sanchez in the midfield battle (Advocaat's change) but we still battered them.  It was ridiculous.  From memory, Richards missed an absolute sitter too.

I'm certainly not putting that on Sherwood.  Leicester, sure.  Stoke, sure.  Sunderland?  Nah.

The marking and the goalkeeping for Leicesters 3rd goal was criminal, thats basic player error to let Dyer of all people score from a header. Sherwood made plenty of tactical mistakes but the players individually have cost us a large number of points.

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I might be going against the grain but...

 

...I don't actually think Sherwood did that badly.  It's the cliché fine line between success and failure.  Of course, some games we were terrible in and some decisions made were awful.  However, we haven't looked like a team that should be rock bottom this season (IMO).  Sunderland have looked far, far worse and we only managed a draw against them.  That wasn't Sherwood's fault (again, IMO) - the players let us down.

His crime was not sticking to a system.  Not ever allowing a consistency within the team this season.  Even if he's right about not 'wanting' the players we signed, he should've at least tried to get some cohesion.

I think Garde will achieve this.  And, therefore, we will look better as a unit.  I'm not sure whether we can be saved from relegation (if I was to bet one way or the other right now, I'd be betting on us going down) but I'm sure we'll be more organised and, thus, more able to hold on to leads.

I disagree with the bolded.

Advocaat changed Sunderland at half time. They came back into the game then. That's how they got the result.

Sherwood changed nothing.

He didn't need to.  Toivonen took apart Sanchez in the midfield battle (Advocaat's change) but we still battered them.  It was ridiculous.  From memory, Richards missed an absolute sitter too.

I'm certainly not putting that on Sherwood.  Leicester, sure.  Stoke, sure.  Sunderland?  Nah.

The marking and the goalkeeping for Leicesters 3rd goal was criminal, thats basic player error to let Dyer of all people score from a header. Sherwood made plenty of tactical mistakes but the players individually have cost us a large number of points.

Which were caused by tactical decisions. Leicester he should have bought on another midfielder and closed it out, take his comment after Swansea, he said the players were tired and leggy at the end, a manager could see that the players were tired, so you have another sub to bring and tighten up and get a point. The problem with Tim was, tactically he hadn't got a clue, then he was just trying anything to stop the rot without any thought process as well as destroying the confidence of his players. 

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I might be going against the grain but...

 

...I don't actually think Sherwood did that badly.  It's the cliché fine line between success and failure.  Of course, some games we were terrible in and some decisions made were awful.  However, we haven't looked like a team that should be rock bottom this season (IMO).  Sunderland have looked far, far worse and we only managed a draw against them.  That wasn't Sherwood's fault (again, IMO) - the players let us down.

His crime was not sticking to a system.  Not ever allowing a consistency within the team this season.  Even if he's right about not 'wanting' the players we signed, he should've at least tried to get some cohesion.

I think Garde will achieve this.  And, therefore, we will look better as a unit.  I'm not sure whether we can be saved from relegation (if I was to bet one way or the other right now, I'd be betting on us going down) but I'm sure we'll be more organised and, thus, more able to hold on to leads.

I disagree with the bolded.

Advocaat changed Sunderland at half time. They came back into the game then. That's how they got the result.

Sherwood changed nothing.

He didn't need to.  Toivonen took apart Sanchez in the midfield battle (Advocaat's change) but we still battered them.  It was ridiculous.  From memory, Richards missed an absolute sitter too.

I'm certainly not putting that on Sherwood.  Leicester, sure.  Stoke, sure.  Sunderland?  Nah.

The marking and the goalkeeping for Leicesters 3rd goal was criminal, thats basic player error to let Dyer of all people score from a header. Sherwood made plenty of tactical mistakes but the players individually have cost us a large number of points.

A better manager wouldn't have let it get to 2-2 with the team under the cosh.

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I might be going against the grain but...

 

...I don't actually think Sherwood did that badly.  It's the cliché fine line between success and failure.  Of course, some games we were terrible in and some decisions made were awful.  However, we haven't looked like a team that should be rock bottom this season (IMO).  Sunderland have looked far, far worse and we only managed a draw against them.  That wasn't Sherwood's fault (again, IMO) - the players let us down.

His crime was not sticking to a system.  Not ever allowing a consistency within the team this season.  Even if he's right about not 'wanting' the players we signed, he should've at least tried to get some cohesion.

I think Garde will achieve this.  And, therefore, we will look better as a unit.  I'm not sure whether we can be saved from relegation (if I was to bet one way or the other right now, I'd be betting on us going down) but I'm sure we'll be more organised and, thus, more able to hold on to leads.

I disagree with the bolded.

Advocaat changed Sunderland at half time. They came back into the game then. That's how they got the result.

Sherwood changed nothing.

He didn't need to.  Toivonen took apart Sanchez in the midfield battle (Advocaat's change) but we still battered them.  It was ridiculous.  From memory, Richards missed an absolute sitter too.

I'm certainly not putting that on Sherwood.  Leicester, sure.  Stoke, sure.  Sunderland?  Nah.

The marking and the goalkeeping for Leicesters 3rd goal was criminal, thats basic player error to let Dyer of all people score from a header. Sherwood made plenty of tactical mistakes but the players individually have cost us a large number of points.

I certainly agree with this. Whilst his management was clearly poor, the amount of individual mistakes has been ridiculous. Even for Leicesters 1st or 2nd they only got the corner due to Lescott and Bacuna performing some kind of chuckle brother To Me, To You act.

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The players making mistakes and the manager not being very good aren't mutually exclusive.

Concentration, organisation, use of personnel. It all comes down to the manager.

How on Earth does a players' concentration comes down to the manager?  That's a ridiculous call.

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The players making mistakes and the manager not being very good aren't mutually exclusive.

Concentration, organisation, use of personnel. It all comes down to the manager.

How on Earth does a players' concentration comes down to the manager?  That's a ridiculous call.

It really isn't. 

Edit: to clarify, I'm not saying a player's concentration is entirely dependant on the manager. That would be ridiculous. What I mean is how a player is managed can have an effect on their concentration.

Edited by Stevo985
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I might be going against the grain but...

 

...I don't actually think Sherwood did that badly.  It's the cliché fine line between success and failure.  Of course, some games we were terrible in and some decisions made were awful.  However, we haven't looked like a team that should be rock bottom this season (IMO).  Sunderland have looked far, far worse and we only managed a draw against them.  That wasn't Sherwood's fault (again, IMO) - the players let us down.

His crime was not sticking to a system.  Not ever allowing a consistency within the team this season.  Even if he's right about not 'wanting' the players we signed, he should've at least tried to get some cohesion.

I think Garde will achieve this.  And, therefore, we will look better as a unit.  I'm not sure whether we can be saved from relegation (if I was to bet one way or the other right now, I'd be betting on us going down) but I'm sure we'll be more organised and, thus, more able to hold on to leads.

I disagree with the bolded.

Advocaat changed Sunderland at half time. They came back into the game then. That's how they got the result.

Sherwood changed nothing.

He didn't need to.  Toivonen took apart Sanchez in the midfield battle (Advocaat's change) but we still battered them.  It was ridiculous.  From memory, Richards missed an absolute sitter too.

I'm certainly not putting that on Sherwood.  Leicester, sure.  Stoke, sure.  Sunderland?  Nah.

The marking and the goalkeeping for Leicesters 3rd goal was criminal, thats basic player error to let Dyer of all people score from a header. Sherwood made plenty of tactical mistakes but the players individually have cost us a large number of points.

Which were caused by tactical decisions.

Not marking you man and as a goalkeeper coming out of your goal and totally missing a cross is not tactical, that's just shit play. Just like Guzan and Lescott's contribution at Chelsea which was also shit play, as was Amavi's error at Palce, as was Clark's defending for Tottenham's first goal. None of those goals have anything to do with tactics

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The players making mistakes and the manager not being very good aren't mutually exclusive.

Concentration, organisation, use of personnel. It all comes down to the manager.

How on Earth does a players' concentration comes down to the manager?  That's a ridiculous call.

Not directly. But if the players are drilled into a certain system. They have a method for defending corner, a process for bringing a ball out of defence , when they have those the scope for errors is reduced. When they all run around like headless chickens, and react to a situation as they see fit (at that particular moment) - then the mistakes happen more frequently....

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The players making mistakes and the manager not being very good aren't mutually exclusive.

Concentration, organisation, use of personnel. It all comes down to the manager.

How on Earth does a players' concentration comes down to the manager?  That's a ridiculous call.

Not directly. But if the players are drilled into a certain system. They have a method for defending corner, a process for bringing a ball out of defence , when they have those the scope for errors is reduced. When they all run around like headless chickens, and react to a situation as they see fit (at that particular moment) - then the mistakes happen more frequently....

Exactly. If there was one thing I'd want Garde to do, it would be to get the players organised and drilled into a decent system.

That alone is worth victories.

Edited by Stevo985
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The players making mistakes and the manager not being very good aren't mutually exclusive.

Concentration, organisation, use of personnel. It all comes down to the manager.

How on Earth does a players' concentration comes down to the manager?  That's a ridiculous call.

Not directly. But if the players are drilled into a certain system. They have a method for defending corner, a process for bringing a ball out of defence , when they have those the scope for errors is reduced. When they all run around like headless chickens, and react to a situation as they see fit (at that particular moment) - then the mistakes happen more frequently....

Which isn't concentration, but organisation?

Individual mistakes simply aren't down to the manager.  If Guzan rolls another pass out to Lescott who, in turn, mis-controls, I won't be pointing the finger at Remi Garde.

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