hippo Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 13 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said: Read that piece which if true would suggest he’s ruined lots of players, him and McAndrew are better off gone. Perhaps his heavy handed methods explain why our u23's get so many injuries - the ones that step out of line get knee capped. !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 On 21/12/2018 at 05:20, mikeyp102 said: I haven’t seen anyone be an ardent defender of KMac, I’ve seen people who have given benefit of doubt or treat as innocent until proven guilty. I’d also argue that if he is found guilty, it will open up cases about a lot of older coaches from other clubs. Every club has players that looked very promising at youth only to fall by the way side, there are many mitigating circumstances that’s surround a player and their development. Your groupings are a little strange, you put Clark in the squad section even though he’s still playing at premiership level, but then compare him to the likes of Jeffers who had probably one decent season (his first) at the top level. You then list other players at Everton many of whom have had fairly average careers (Rooney aside), no better than our academy graduates. You also talk about Everton and not being the main club in the area, but neglect to mention how few players Liverpool have brought through in that time, Gerrard and carragher the only ones who have made a good career. Yes we could bring more through, but then so could every club. Unfortunately, the way football is heading, the clubs at the top end will have the opportunity to bring through better players because they buy any youth players with high potential at a younger age, these players are then put on a large contracts without achieving anything (Arsenal with daniel Crowley as an example). With all due respect, you have ignored it then. There are posters criticising the victims for being too sensitive, excusing this disgusting behaviour by mocking the 'current generation' 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stratvillan Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 Don't know if he is guilty or not. It could be argued that the limited number of players graduating into the first team at villa, but making the grade elsewhere might indicate that something wasn't working as well as it might. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post HanoiVillan Posted December 22, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 22, 2018 On 21/12/2018 at 05:20, mikeyp102 said: I haven’t seen anyone be an ardent defender of KMac, I’ve seen people who have given benefit of doubt or treat as innocent until proven guilty. I disagree with this first part of this sentence, but I want to focus on the second. There are three reasons why the club need to take public and decisive action here. The first is that this 'innocent until proven guilty' framing is not right. This is not a criminal process, but a corporate disciplinary one. There are no juries being convened or barristers being billed. There is simply a corporate personnel decision about whether to keep in place a guy who has been accused of historical cases of bullying in addition to a recent adverse finding of bullying in an FA-led inquiry. The club don't need to prove these accusations are true, and nor does anyone else. MacDonald does of course have the chance to sue for wrongful dismissal if he is sacked, but given the recent finding against him it's very hard to see how he could win that case, since that probably should have been cause for dismissal in the first place. I would argue that the precautionary principle is important here, especially with children and young adults; we don't need to keep the guy who might or might not be a sometimes-violent bully if we can just get someone else who definitely isn't that. However, even if people don't agree with these milquetoast opinions of child-protection, and if there are people reading this thinking 'nonsense, this stuff is how men are made' or 'it didn't do me any harm', allow me to point out that this stuff isn't effective either. The best youth academies in the world are not run like this. If you went to Barcelona or Man City's youth academies, I bet you wouldn't see middle-aged men in tracksuits doing sliding tackles on teenagers and calling them c**ts half a dozen times a day. The truth is youth football is an incredibly competitive environment, especially when it comes to recruiting the best prospects. There are prospective footballers today - maybe some of them Villa fans, like Greg Walters who made some of these accusations the other day - or their parents, who are reading these stories at the same time as choosing which club to send their sons and daughters to, and if there aren't today there will be in the near future. The best prospective players and their families can choose other clubs, where the people running the youth system aren't accused in print of being violent dinosaurs. The club needs to sever ties with MacDonald. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted December 22, 2018 Moderator Share Posted December 22, 2018 52 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: this 'innocent until proven guilty' framing is not right. This is not a criminal process, but a corporate disciplinary one. There are no juries being convened or barristers being billed. There is simply a corporate personnel decision about whether to keep in place a guy who has been accused of historical cases of bullying in addition to a recent adverse finding of bullying in an FA-led inquiry. The club don't need to prove these accusations are true, and nor does anyone else. I understand your view, yet I wonder if the point couldn't be made that, yes he was found to have erred in the past and was then given remedial/awareness training, had his role taken away and has not at all done anything wrong since. Someone has come forward and said "he bullied me too, 20 odd years ago. Thing is he's already been dealt with for that period of offending. It's double jeopardy - he's already been dealt with for that time. People may feel the punishment and awareness training was too lenient, but that's a different subject. The previous allegations were investigated and found to carry weight. These (as yet) have not been. IF they are found to have merit, then further decisions need to be made. As of now, normal legal or disciplinary process on this, i.e. innocent until...etc. ought to apply, surely? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyp102 Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 5 hours ago, DCJonah said: With all due respect, you have ignored it then. There are posters criticising the victims for being too sensitive, excusing this disgusting behaviour by mocking the 'current generation' But that is not an ardent supporter of MacDonald per se. That is someone’s opinion on the current generation. An ardent supporter of MacDonald would be saying something like “MacDonald is a great coach, he couldn’t possibly have done this” 1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said: The first is that this 'innocent until proven guilty' framing is not right. This is not a criminal process, but a corporate disciplinary one. There are no juries being convened or barristers being billed. There is simply a corporate personnel decision about whether to keep in place a guy who has been accused of historical cases of bullying in addition to a recent adverse finding of bullying in an FA-led inquiry. The club don't need to prove these accusations are true, and nor does anyone else. MacDonald does of course have the chance to sue for wrongful dismissal if he is sacked, but given the recent finding against him it's very hard to see how he could win that case, since that probably should have been cause for dismissal in the first place. I would argue that the precautionary principle is important here, especially with children and young adults; we don't need to keep the guy who might or might not be a sometimes-violent bully if we can just get someone else who definitely isn't that. However, even if people don't agree with these milquetoast opinions of child-protection, and if there are people reading this thinking 'nonsense, this stuff is how men are made' or 'it didn't do me any harm', allow me to point out that this stuff isn't effective either. The best youth academies in the world are not run like this. If you went to Barcelona or Man City's youth academies, I bet you wouldn't see middle-aged men in tracksuits doing sliding tackles on teenagers and calling them c**ts half a dozen times a day. The truth is youth football is an incredibly competitive environment, especially when it comes to recruiting the best prospects. There are prospective footballers today - maybe some of them Villa fans, like Greg Walters who made some of these accusations the other day - or their parents, who are reading these stories at the same time as choosing which club to send their sons and daughters to, and if there aren't today there will be in the near future. The best prospective players and their families can choose other clubs, where the people running the youth system aren't accused in print of being violent dinosaurs. The club needs to sever ties with MacDonald. Firstly, I’m pretty sure Purslow said a barrister had been appointed immediately. Secondly, we as fans haven’t been part of the set up at villa, we don’t know what has happened on the training grounds. At the moment there is only allegations of what happened. There has also been support from other players who have said MacDonald was great with them. The club as yet haven’t sacked MacDonald, and are making enquiries. How as a fan can we judge someone without knowing the full facts. No Man City and Barcelona probably don’t coach like that now, Villa probably don’t. But I can almost guarantee around the time Farrelly was coming through, Man City would’ve had a coach very similar to MacDonald. I’m not excusing the actions, if he has made someone suicidal of course disciplinary action should be taken, but you can’t compare coaching now to coaching then. We are much more aware of mental health these days. 50 minutes ago, blandy said: I understand your view, yet I wonder if the point couldn't be made that, yes he was found to have erred in the past and was then given remedial/awareness training, had his role taken away and has not at all done anything wrong since. Someone has come forward and said "he bullied me too, 20 odd years ago. Thing is he's already been dealt with for that period of offending. It's double jeopardy - he's already been dealt with for that time. People may feel the punishment and awareness training was too lenient, but that's a different subject. The previous allegations were investigated and found to carry weight. These (as yet) have not been. IF they are found to have merit, then further decisions need to be made. As of now, normal legal or disciplinary process on this, i.e. innocent until...etc. ought to apply, surely? Better than I could have responded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiemunster Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 Has anyone heard what's going on with regards to the bullying allegations against MacDonald and McAndrew? Not heard anything since December last year. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Albrighton Posted August 20, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted August 20, 2019 Quote The Aston Villa youth coach Kevin MacDonald has left the club “with immediate effect” following an investigation into allegations of bullying made by a number of former young players. In a statement, Villa apologised to the former players affected by the behaviour of MacDonald, who was a youth and reserve team coach in two spells over a 25-year period from the mid-1990s, and Villa said his conduct “would not be tolerated by the club today”. The investigation, conducted by an independent barrister, Jack Mitchell, was initiated by the club’s chief executive, Christian Purslow, after the Guardian published an interview with the former Villa midfielder Gareth Farrelly in December. Guardian link 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 (edited) Glad that we're finally rid of him. Who knows how much talent he ruined with his behaviour. Prick. Edited August 20, 2019 by lexicon 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talldarkandransome Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 Professional bullying is up there with racism for me, different level of ignorance but the same weak minded people do it. Sometimes known as banter, and before anyone comments I know there is banter and banter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 Some people should be ashamed of what they posted in this thread. Take the claret and blue specs off sometimes. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alreadyexists Posted August 20, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted August 20, 2019 Good riddance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 So I guess we will now see Man Utd retrospectively act on Fergie for his infamous years of the verball hairdryer treatment + kicking anything that comes into contact into players faces? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgyknees Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 4 minutes ago, Kingman said: So I guess we will now see Man Utd retrospectively act on Fergie for his infamous years of the verball hairdryer treatment + kicking anything that comes into contact into players faces? Are the two situations exactly the same then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted August 20, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted August 20, 2019 (edited) My god, I can't believe he was still here. Thought he had left years ago. I assume they will conduct a root and branch review of the youth set up. Edited August 20, 2019 by sidcow 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 3 minutes ago, avfcDJ said: Are the two situations exactly the same then? Accusations but not limited to, including negativity and constant verbal abuse! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgyknees Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 Just now, Kingman said: Accusations but not limited to, including negativity and constant verbal abuse! Accusations, re: Fergie, what percentage were on school age boys and teens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 I can't imagine you'll find too many people behind the scenes who will have a good word to say about this prick. Good riddance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 I trust the club's judgement on this. There's been an investigation so clearly something must've come up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodders0223 Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 Going to be a lot less characters being built, that's for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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