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Demitri_C

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3 hours ago, LakotaDakota said:

It was 25 years ago & he's crying because a coach was telling him he would never be a decent footballer?

People are just f**king pathetic nowadays. No wonder the country/world is f**ked

 

42 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

I don't think anybody is saying it should be dismissed, but the current culture no longer applies an "innocent until proven guilty" structure.

There's a lot in your post I agree with.

I read the original post I quoted as saying it should be dismissed.  Maybe that was wrong, but it's a clear inference to me.

I've no idea if it's true. I've no idea if it isn't. I think we need to let the investigation run its course before we castigate KMac for "being a bully" or Farrelly for "crying" or being "**** pathetic".

KMac has been found to be guilty of this before, though, which doesn't help his cause.

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1 hour ago, privateer said:

Sounds like Fergie's in the shit then. I suppose the hairdryer and flying football boot victims are waiting for him to fully recover from his health problems before suing his bullying, dictatorial old ass off.

Well yeah that's the thing isnt it,  now this has come out against Kev,  will this be a very long road in a big pile of crap on many in charge who didn't stand for crap against players and gave em what for in the dressing room.

It's the whole teacher and punishment thing again isn't it,just now in football. I got hit with a metal ruler on back of my hand in secondary school by woodwork teacher, yet what went down back then to what can now is totally different and isn't accepted.

I don't agree with abuse, but agree with authority to an extent, what players maybe saying is bullying may not be the way others see it. There are those out there that see shouting, punishment, swearing, insults as abuse or bullying, yet other people will shrug it off and get on with what's in front of them and not listen to it one bit Where one player let's say found K Mac a bully, the other player may see it as that's the way he teaches and I must learn to do as I'm told, learn from my mistakes and progress.

some people when authority is pushed against them move themselves into that very position even more by also opening there mouths back, for all we know the player accusing of the bullying may of been a complete butt wipe at the time.

There's alot to deal with when a matter of this arises, can't just take the accusers word for it, have to be objective about it all and put feelings aside.

If I did to my son what my mum and elder sister and her bloke used to do to me with the physical abuse, then in this day and age I'd be put away for it a d ritely so. I don't blame me mum though I was a handful and a naughty git, in a way it taught me rite from wrong even though the level of abuse was really bad. With my sister and her now ex bloke, i didnt deserve that at all. While my mum was working they was sposed to be looking after me, that was a whole new level with it being mental and physical. I think it all made me the person i am today to be honest and in a way i can understand what Gareth farelly thought and that he may of been put through an ordeal he felt he was having difficulty dealing with. For K Mac though he  himself may of been passing his teachings on, and it's one of them where we can't really judge the man as the only people who had experience with it was the people in that situation at the time.

Court will no doubt get a feel for what Gareth went through, ask him maybe to do an instance of how K Mac went off from his words, tone, aggression and expressions, then K Mac will have a chance to defend that as its his rite too.

So much going on, none of us can judge K Mac yet though untill everything has come out.

Edited by Dave-R
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8 hours ago, TheStagMan said:

ironically by those complainig about bullying and also in some cases those who were massively angry about insults being used against Bruce.

What a **** ridiculous comparison

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Problem with this 'old school' way of teachings is some young players will find it motivational and others will see it as bullying, I joined the forces pretty much straight from school so I I've seen all these types of training techniques, for me it motivated me to prove the instructors wrong and push on but for others you could see it break them mentally. I'm not sure what to make of it all currently but I'd imagine if he was genuine nasty person who was a bully there surely would have been a lot more accusations against him. 

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It's funny that someone mentioned Fergie. I've heard it said that Fergie was so good because he could tell who would respond to particular styles. I think it was an interview with michael owen.

He said something like it didn't matter how bad Nani played, Fergie would always put his arm round him in the dressing room and tell him he was doing well and to keep it up.
Whereas it didn't matter what Rooney was doing, Fergie would absolutely hammer him at half time. 

Because he knew that Rooney responded to that sort of treatment well, but it would break Nani.

 

So I guess that's the difference. Just because some youth players respond well and like KMac, that's not evidence that bullying didn't occur. Different players respond to different methods.

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12 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Would this behaviour be acceptable one schools with kids?

It used to be acceptable and the norm to beat kids at school. Not saying that was the best way, just that in those days it was acceptable. Different standards. Different times. It's not acceptable now.

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24 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Would this behaviour be acceptable one schools with kids? Of course it wouldn't therefore should not be here either if proven he has done what he has been accused of. 

He is accused of making life difficult for one person 25 years ago...

Hundreds/Thousands of players have been through the same system with him since then. A few will always hate hard work/tough, drill style physical training/being shouted at etc.

Even Farrelly himself said he made him a better footballer, surely that is the job of a football coach...

Sure if he was finding things incredibly difficult something should be done about it to try and help him and today it obviously would be but there are always going to be a few people in football & life in general that simply can not cope with things as well as others.

Sorry but if you can't cope with being shouted at on a training field then being a professional footballer probably isn't for you.

 

You can't apply todays standards/norms to the past. It was perfectly normal for kids to play with toys made with lead & painted with lead based paints at one point and adults/teachers to thrash the living shit out of you if you misbehaved. Obviously this isn't permitted today but it doesn't mean you can judge those that did it 30+ years ago as having done something wrong.

Edited by LakotaDakota
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Does this mean we can all sue our teachers from 30 years ago. It was all about the ruler to the back of our calfs, an in  junior school getting the top of our hands slapped. Physcologically scarred us, as you can see me still talking about it now, £££££££,

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33 minutes ago, snowychap said:

Farrelly was in the Villa youth set up from 1992-1995 from what I can see. That's not 30+ years ago.

26 years or 30 years, you honestly think that matters? & the 30+ years was added at the bottom to a general point about treatment of kids at that time rather than specifically an academy issue which i said was 25 years ago at the start of the post.........

corporal punishment was still perfectly legal in UK non state run schools until 1998

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9 hours ago, blandy said:

and given a chance would deliberately transgress every stupid rule “just to kind of reinforce my independence from ‘them’”. I saw it as a challenge to beat the system.

and now you get to give out warning points for people who transgress every rule  :D

 

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I think there is a subtle difference between " toughening someone up" and Bullying.

IMO before a "toughening up" programme the recipient has to be in cahoots......They need to be councelled and it must be established that the personality platform is ok to accept it....both side have to agree.

  • One for me is a Physical thing and a mental thing
  • The other is just Mental.

To be shouted at and driven and goaded to do more, is not bullying in my book and it should be appraised with praise when things are being favourably responded to...it should be aimed at the action, not the person.

Bullying, is a constant mental drain of failure and negative remarks that are usually surrounded by the same things day in day out, with None or little praise over anything the victim does....usually an attack on the person as opposed to what the person is doing, its personal as opposed to objective.

In Industry its referred to on occasions as "Gas lighting" where you turn the victims flame down at will.

Its very hard to pin down....but I think there are clear lines to common sense people what is Bullying and What is driving hard training.

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4 minutes ago, LakotaDakota said:

26 years or 30 years, you honestly think that matters?

Yes, it matters greatly in the context of attitudes towards dealing with children in a teaching or pastoral capacity.

I'd suggest that the 90s was much more in tune with today than the mid 80s and before not least because of the sea change about outdated attitudes to the disciplining and the development of children, teenagers and young adults through the early 80s that led to the banning of corporal punishment in state schools in 1986 and the voluntary withdrawal of it in many other institutions around the same time.

 

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4 hours ago, blandy said:

It used to be acceptable and the norm to beat kids at school. Not saying that was the best way, just that in those days it was acceptable. Different standards. Different times. It's not acceptable now.

Pete, I remember having the stick on more than one occasion and it didn't do me any harm....it focuses the mind on Authority.

However, If I had it nearly every day and whether I was naughty or not, still got it.....that's bullying.

The subject, needs to be put in to context.

Times have changed and what is acceptable and not is different.....but providing punishment is administered fairly,and its clear why, its questionable whether the modern day has got it right.

Stand alone Bullying IMO today or yesteryear, physical or Mental is taboo....its probably the thing I abhor most in life....but its not to be confused with Discipline or being disciplined.

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4 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

It's funny that someone mentioned Fergie. I've heard it said that Fergie was so good because he could tell who would respond to particular styles. I think it was an interview with michael owen.

He said something like it didn't matter how bad Nani played, Fergie would always put his arm round him in the dressing room and tell him he was doing well and to keep it up.
Whereas it didn't matter what Rooney was doing, Fergie would absolutely hammer him at half time. 

Because he knew that Rooney responded to that sort of treatment well, but it would break Nani.

 

So I guess that's the difference. Just because some youth players respond well and like KMac, that's not evidence that bullying didn't occur. Different players respond to different methods.

Absolute Key....Cloughie was the same.

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