K-Mac

[rumourmill]

My son was destroyed by this academy.  Had to get treatment for depression . All from the treatment of certain youth coach who has now left . 

[srsmithusa]

1 minute ago, rumourmill said:

My son was destroyed by this academy.  Had to get treatment for depression . All from the treatment of certain youth coach who has now left . 

So sorry to hear of his depression, hope we is doing or will do well.  

[Wezbid]

Many things happened when I was a child that many would barely bat an eyelid about back then. It doesn't make it right or acceptable (this isn't in regards to this issue specifically). 

You can develop good, hard-working youth players without treating them like dogs. There is a difference between pushing a person to achieve things and abuse. For every so many who made it, how many turned away from the game because of methods? 

People will say well, they obviously weren't up to standard if they gave up. Which is bollocks. There's being too weak to play competitive football and there's also good players pushed beyond what's acceptable who could have made it if they weren't pushed over the edge. 

Plenty of youth players these days have too much, too soon but that is not what people condemning harsh, old-school 'methods' are promoting. I think people need to understand that point before the 'they have it easy' brigade suggest so. I would rather the youth earn a sensible wage and treated with respect and allowed to play with some freedom and enjoyment of the game as opposed to humiliation, fear of making a mistake and playing safe and therefore limiting themselves. An element of discipline can still be there without having to instill a fear culture. It will work for a few bit I'm sure many more talents have been lost. 

I used to get a garden cane wrapped around my legs growing up at times, more at the other person's frustration and anger than anything I'd done wrong but back then it wouldn't have been seen as anything that bad. It was still wrong imo. I learned nothing from it other than people can lash out at you regardless. 

Plenty of us will look back at youth football, PE in school etc and tell the younger generation how it was rougher, harsher, and how easy they have it but a lot of it isn't an approach I would look back on with any sort of fondness and I'm only 32. I dread to think what the likes of Bruce and co had to deal with as youths. It made them what they were, but maybe they could have been even more. 

[rumourmill]

All good . But these kids are in a work situation . Many living in digs away from family for support.   So to be treated like a worthless piece of s##t on a daily basis in front of coaches and players would be very hard to take . And if you talk up and buck the system it could make it worse . 

Glad to see this family has come forward . If they need any backup just give me a bell

[OutByEaster?]

7 hours ago, rumourmill said:

Glad to see this family has come forward . If they need any backup just give me a bell

Which family has come forward? I wasn't aware of nay new allegations and I thought this was all done and dusted now.

I have no idea on what goes on behind closed doors and whether the training methods cross lines between 'tough love' and bullying or abuse, but on history and the testimony of former players who have come through here at Villa and across the lower leagues in England and elsewhere, MacDonald is a massively respected coach who has brought through dozens of players and helped them into careers that have quite often been very successful - many of those players cite him as an important influence.

In results terms he's arguably the best youth coach we've ever had, and he's favourite to win that argument. He's won the reserve leagues, the youth cup and put players into international football, title winning teams and European cup winning teams - he's also been responsible for ensuring players that weren't the very best have gone on to have good careers at lower levels. 

His methods may be questioned, and indeed may be questionable at times, but you can't argue based on the players he's moulded and their respect for him that he hasn't been a wonderful asset for the football club. 

[rumourmill]

I ment come out and put in a complaint . I have no idea who they are

[OutByEaster?]

10 minutes ago, rumourmill said:

I ment come out and put in a complaint . I have no idea who they are

Ah, I guess then you're referring to the initial complaint in February; in which case, I think (but I'm not sure) that it's now been addressed. 

 

[briny_ear]

On 22/08/2017 at 23:55, briny_ear said:

So was this new "Safeguarding Officer" actually appointed as promised back in March? Don't recall seeing it announced.

So to answer my own question, yes, there is a safeguarding officer called Maggie Martin, who apparently runs a 16-strong team of safeguarding staff. There is an enormously long statement of safeguarding policy that staff must follow at risk of disciplinary action. 

K-Mac must find people with clip boards monitoring his every word and action wherever he goes!

 

[AntrimBlack]

3 hours ago, briny_ear said:

So to answer my own question, yes, there is a safeguarding officer called Maggie Martin, who apparently runs a 16-strong team of safeguarding staff. There is an enormously long statement of safeguarding policy that staff must follow at risk of disciplinary action. 

K-Mac must find people with clip boards monitoring his every word and action wherever he goes!

 

That's a big team.

[a m ole]

5 minutes ago, AntrimBlack said:

That's a big team.

I hear they beat the first team in a behind closed doors friendly a few weeks ago.

[HanoiVillan]

10 hours ago, a m ole said:

I hear they beat the first team in a behind closed doors friendly a few weeks ago.

Well, they did have an extra five players. 

[briny_ear]

35 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

Well, they did have an extra five players. 

And they were well looked after.

[Demitri_C]

Quote

 

After evidence of bullying at Aston Villa’s academy, why has the FA gone silent?

The FA was asked to investigate evidence of bullying by Villa’s youth coach Kevin MacDonald and told of a toxic culture, denied by the club. Months later the key personnel remain in place and a player who suffered ‘hell’ waits for answers

 Kevin MacDonald, an Aston Villa academy coach, pictured in 2015. The club said it was clear the FA has found ‘no concerns over the welfare of children’ in its academy.

In February the Premier League made a rare intervention into one of its clubs’ exalted youth academies, finding evidence of bullying and aggressive behaviour by the Aston Villa coach Kevin MacDonald and a failure by the club to respond when concerns were raised.

 

The father of a youth-team player had complained about MacDonald, telling the head of the academy, Sean Kimberley, and other staff, that his son had begun to show signs of depression after being bullied and emotionally abused by MacDonald from April 2015 to September 2016.

The father was dissatisfied with the club’s desultory response, so he complained to the Premier League. It commissioned an independent review, whose conclusions were communicated to the father by letter. It said: “There is evidence of bullying, aggressive behaviour, and unacceptable language by Mr MacDonald.”

The league told the father it had insisted on “sweeping and rigorous measures to improve practice and procedure to ensure academy player welfare is prioritised” at Villa. MacDonald was referred to the Football Association for investigation into whether he should continue to work with young footballers or be sanctioned.

Ten months later the father has heard nothing meaningful from the FA. A number of respected staff, including coaches and people in the club’s medical and training departments, left Villa during the period of the alleged bullying and have had confidentiality clauses incorporated into their settlements. It is understood the FA has been told there was a “toxic culture” at the Villa academy.

Yet MacDonald, a former Leicester City and Liverpool midfield player, and a coach at Villa in two stints totalling almost 20 years, is still in place as the coach of the under-23 team. Kimberley still occupies his senior role, despite the finding of the Premier League review that staff failed to take responsibility for dealing with the father’s concerns and also failed to focus on players’ welfare. The club says it has made a “significant improvement” since February and rejects the view there is a toxic culture at the academy.

The father, who wishes to remain anonymous because he believes football’s culture victimises people who speak out so his son could suffer further, is deeply unhappy with the lack of accountability.

“It has been 10 months since the Premier League determined there was bullying but they have given me very little information about what has changed at Aston Villa,” he said. “The FA has been extremely slow with its investigation, it is difficult to see what is happening at all, and it has left Kevin MacDonald in place throughout. This sends a signal to me that the English football authorities still believe bullying and players’ welfare are not serious concerns.”

Many parents of boys in the academy system are wary of raising concerns, for fear it will damage their sons’ career prospects. In that climate, this father has been markedly persistent. He first complained to Kimberley in March last year, that MacDonald’s conduct involved humiliation of players and verbal abuse.

The father and his son felt nothing changed as a result, so in May 2016 the father wrote to the club’s human resources department, complaining of verbal and psychological abuse of his son, saying the season had been “hell” for him. His son had suffered from shingles, which he was advised could have been stress-related, and he feared the abuse was “changing his [son’s] character and his mood about the job he has always been so passionate about [football]”.

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 Aston Villa said they prided themselves on the number of young players they have produced in recent times. Photograph: Nathan Stirk/Getty Images

The club did not keep him informed, then the HR department replied five months later with a brief email, saying: “Following careful consideration of the evidence collected the club has taken the actions it deems are appropriate and the investigation is now closed.”

The father was incensed Villa had not taken the issue seriously enough, leaving the bullying and culture in place. He then complained to the Premier League, which had jurisdiction because Villa were still in the top flight when the alleged abuse happened. They were relegated in May 2016.

The Premier League wrote to the father with its conclusions in February. It said it had asked Villa to provide an account of what had happened and “details of what steps had been taken to address your concerns” but that it had been dissatisfied with the club’s response. The league commissioned an independent review, and found evidence of bullying by MacDonald. It also found: “There was a failure by several club personnel [who were not named] to take responsibility for dealing with the concerns raised by you and your son.

“The club’s management of your complaint and the concerns raised by you and your son was characterised throughout by a lack of focus on player welfare, failure by the club to implement its procedures and poor communication.”

The league told the father it had given Villa advice, then said: “The club has demonstrated improvement under new management [the Chinese businessman Tony Xia took over in May 2016] with a renewed emphasis being placed on safeguarding and welfare.”

The league said it had “made representations regarding Mr MacDonald’s conduct” to the FA, and “any investigation or sanction in relation to Mr MacDonald” was an issue for the FA.

Ten months later Kevin MacDonald is still a coach at Aston Villa, Kimberley the head of the academy, and there has been no discernible sanction or accountability from them or anyone else at the club. The process since February shows how football works.

The FA investigators are understood to have spoken to several people and been told there was a problem with Villa’s academy, which was not restricted to allegations about MacDonald. Staff who left with confidentiality agreements have been assured by Villa, on the Premier League’s insistence, that an exception is made for safeguarding concerns, which they must report.

The father hoped the FA would conduct a wider investigation but the Premier League is responsible for licensing its clubs’ academies; the FA’s role is limited to the defined issue of safeguarding.

The FA declined to comment, because it is still conducting an investigation, but it is clear the FA has assessed MacDonald not to be a safeguarding risk, so left him free to continue his role.

The Premier League says it has representatives inspecting Villa’s academy to make sure the required improvements have been made. “Following a complaint and a subsequent investigation, the Premier League insisted Aston Villa make a number of significant changes to the club’s safeguarding policies and practices,” it said in a statement.

“The club agreed to these changes and the league has sent independent monitors to their academy on several occasions, including unannounced visits this season, to ensure they are now in place.”

Aston Villa said it is clear the FA has found “no concerns over the welfare of children” within its academy and rejected allegations of a toxic culture. The club said it cooperated fully with the Premier League’s investigation, had made changes to the structure and people at the academy, and “believe there has been a significant improvement under a new management structure at the top level of the club.

“Unannounced visits from the Premier League have highlighted and confirmed improvements have been made.”

Villa said they prided themselves on the number of young players they have produced, citing Gary Cahill, Gareth Barry and Marc Albrighton, then Jack Grealish and Andre Green, and more recent graduates Keinan Davis, Callum O’Hare and Jake Doyle-Hayes. The Villa hierarchy clearly appear to value MacDonald and believe his methods have played a key role in such players coming through.

Pete Lowe of the Players Trust, an independent not-for-profit organisation which helped the young player’s father pursue his case, said the results remain unsatisfactory: “If this concerned parent had not persisted and the Premier League’s independent review had not happened, the culture it found would still be in place,” Lowe said.

“There is no indication given in this case that enough has really changed and a signal is being sent that this issue of players’ welfare, which should have the highest priority, is not being taken seriously enough.”

Which, combined with the general air of secrecy, adds fuel to the growing calls for an independent body to be responsible for the welfare of young people making their way in the fiercely competitive and ruthless world of sport.

 

Think this belongs here

If there is evidence and these allegations are true he should be sacked immediately. Don't care how good a coach you are bullying is unacceptable. 

[bannedfromHandV]

5 hours ago, Demitri_C said:

Think this belongs here

If there is evidence and these allegations are true he should be sacked immediately. Don't care how good a coach you are bullying is unacceptable. 

Bullying, such a subjective issue.

 

One person's bullying is another's toughening up, out of context and generally speaking, I think kids are mollycoddled too much today, though it's easy for me to state as I don't have children.

 

We have kids topping themselves these days because someone didn't 'like' their latest instagram update so to say there are varying degrees of sensitivity is an understatement.

[DaveAV1]

1 hour ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Bullying, such a subjective issue.

 

One person's bullying is another's toughening up, out of context and generally speaking, I think kids are mollycoddled too much today, though it's easy for me to state as I don't have children.

 

We have kids topping themselves these days because someone didn't 'like' their latest instagram update so to say there are varying degrees of sensitivity is an understatement.

I absolutely agree. Whilst genuine bullying is never acceptable, it is very subjective and people’s characters, and therefore reactions to situations, are all different. A mate of mine owns a recruitment agency was telling me how incredibly sensitive many kids, just out of education, are these days. They go through school and uni being told that they’re fabulous and that they never do badly or fail. Then they enter the real world and oh dear it’s all a big shock. He’s had kids turn into a blubbering mess just because he’s told them that they didn’t get a job. 

I don’t mean to make this sound like a, “When I were a lad”, speech but it becomes harder these days to differentiate between a case of bullying or some kid who thinks he’s having a bad day because he had to put his own milk on his cornflakes. 

Edited December 8, 2017 by DaveAV1

[bannedfromHandV]

1 hour ago, DaveAV1 said:

I absolutely agree. Whilst genuine bullying is never acceptable, it is very subjective and people’s characters, and therefore reactions to situations, are all different. A mate of mine owns a recruitment agency was telling me how incredibly sensitive many kids, just out of education, are these days. They go through school and uni being told that they’re fabulous and that they never do badly or fail. Then they enter the real world and oh dear it’s all a big shock. He’s had kids turn into a blubbering mess just because he’s told them that they didn’t get a job. 

I don’t mean to make this sound like a, “When I were a lad”, speech but it becomes harder these days to differentiate between a case of bullying or some kid who thinks he’s having a bad day because he had to put his own milk on his cornflakes. 

Spot on.

Kind of going off topic a bit but like you say, we build these kids up today telling them all the things they could grow up to be without ever tempering it with what they'll likely be.

I work with a guy who's having to get his kid treated for clinical depression because he doesn't have as many facebook friends as most of the other kids, it's nuts.

I accept that times have changed and you can't equate my childhood to that of a kid today but in a competitive environment such as a football club, where let's face it, there's a damn good chance they're going to have to deal with rejection and disappointment as well as the physical aspect of the game itself I can well imagine some personalities struggling.

[Vive_La_Villa]

While I agree with the above posts to an extent don't you think that employees working with young kids need to adapt with the times?  

If when I was a kid teacher used to Cain us I'm sure it would have had serious affects on us mentally. 

Yet 20 years prior to that it was the norm! 

 

[Vive_La_Villa]

11 hours ago, Demitri_C said:

Think this belongs here

If there is evidence and these allegations are true he should be sacked immediately. Don't care how good a coach you are bullying is unacceptable. 

He is most likely acting the same way he has for his whole time as a coach and what he went through as a player. It should be the clubs responsibility to educate him to coach with the times. If he is unable to adapt then maybe he needs a different role. 

But you don't just become a bully overnight! 

[DaveAV1]

1 hour ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

While I agree with the above posts to an extent don't you think that employees working with young kids need to adapt with the times?  

If when I was a kid teacher used to Cain us I'm sure it would have had serious affects on us mentally. 

Yet 20 years prior to that it was the norm! 

 

Yes of course there is a need in all aspects of life and jobs to move with the times. Never the less there’s has to be a balance and an awareness of what the outside world is really like, depending on the career they chose. If you have ambitions in something as competitive as football, there is an element of toughness, both physical and mental that can’t be ignored. That doesn’t mean that bullying is either acceptable or particularly successful in getting people to be successful and sufficiently resilient. 

[DaveAV1]

As an example of a good coach, I remember Ron Saunders explaining his attitude towards man management. He said that some players responded to an arm around them and gentle encouragement. I believe he used Brian Little as an example. Whereas he said that other players needed a constant kick up the arse. He said that Tony Morely thought he’d fallen out with him if he hadn’t had a bollocking by 10.30. His talent was to recognise who needed what.