K-Mac

[rodders0223]

1 minute ago, Kingman said:

Yes articles, TBH I don't read papers as fact, It says Guinness on the side of a bus but they don't **** sell it do they.

Again, Accusations but not limited to, including negativity and constant verbal abuse!.. Give me your inside finer details how this was anyway different to Fergies hairdryer. 

I think a number of posters already have.

What a strange hill to die on.

[DCJonah]

18 hours ago, Kingman said:

Yes articles, TBH I don't read papers as fact, It says Guinness on the side of a bus but they don't **** sell it do they.

Again, Accusations but not limited to, including negativity and constant verbal abuse!.. Give me your inside finer details how this was anyway different to Fergies hairdryer. 

The club have conducted an internal investigation, sacked K Mac and apologised to those involved. So don't say accusations to suggest it didn't happen. Pathetic. 

These were children and he was in a position of power over them. He bullied them, which led to some of them experiencing depression, suicidal thoughts and giving up on their dreams. I state again, children. 

Fergie, got angry every so often at professional adults as a way to get them to perform and motivate them. 

 

Edited August 22, 2019 by DCJonah

[Keyblade]

Fergie chewing out grown ass adults and a youth coach bullying children under his care are hardly analogous. Ridiculous to suggest so.

[NurembergVillan]

On 20/08/2019 at 22:24, cyrusr said:

As the report forms part of an employee disciplinary process, the Club is unable to provide details in public although copies of Mr Mitchell’s investigation have been provided to The FA, Premier League and statutory authorities.

Mr Mitchell appealed for individuals to come forward to give evidence and we are especially grateful to those former players who assisted him in his investigation.

Aston Villa wishes to apologise to all former players who were affected by behaviour which would not be tolerated by the Club today.

 

 

2 hours ago, Kingman said:

Strange how non of the successful players came out who made a career and life out of it

Or did they?  We'll probably never know.

I've had a far more successful career than most of my peers as a student, but I'd happily stand up and say I was treated like shit by two of my university tutors - far beyond what should've been deemed acceptable.  It's not just sour grapes that drives these things.

[rumourmill]

Think this is along way from over . How many came foward ? . If they have proof the club did not act on this issue and it went on over along period of time . Club may have some compensation payments to effected players coming up ? These guys were minors when this happened .

[jackbauer24]

I'm genuinely really interested in reading people's views on this, it's a fascinating insight in to how the public view things, how attitudes have changed in society and where football fits in within that spectrum.

Without knowing the ins and outs of this particular case it is interesting, and perhaps worthy of discussion, to question whether historic LEGAL behaviour can be viewed in the present fairly. What was once acceptable may no longer be, but does that mean people should be punished retrospectively? Again, I stress, this isn't to do with KMac's behaviour but judging past attitudes in modern situations.

Whilst the previous paragraph may suggest some sympathy towards KM, it actually doesn't reflect my view at all. Football has always been the domain of the very worst traits in masculinity. It was what put me off playing from a very early stage; the bravado, the cockiness, the aggression, the lad culture. It's been mentioned to me that I may have even had a career in the game if I'd played/ been coached from an early age but it would have been people like KM which would have made me quit instantly.

However, the nuances of this issue then swing the discussion in the other direction again; maybe I didn't have the mental fortitude to succeed as a professional footballer/sportsman. Where is the line between pushing a player and bullying them? And who decides? Whilst I can't agree with the poster saying (or even using) the term 'snowflakes' it would be naïve to suggest there isn't a link between lack of success and the inability to deal with criticism. Therefore, lots of failed sportsman would be more inclined to feel they were bullied than successful ones who view that criticism as character building. Criticism is vital element of growth but it's only relatively recently that the term 'constructive criticism' has been used. 

This isn't really a view, more of a musing on the multitude of issues that arrive in cases such as KM. I'm a strong advocate for positivity, equality and diversity. I can't wait for the day that we have openly gay players and that Kick It Out is viewed as a historic success like Women's Suffrage. Unfortunately, I doubt that will be in my life time as football seems to be the slowest to move with the times. How can the sport I love be so resistant to progress?

[DaveAV1]

That’s a great post and brings up difficult questions, such as when is criticism bullying. A lot of bullying is clearly obvious but some much more subtle and criticism is received differently by different people. There appears to be overwhelming evidence that KMac was a bully, had stepped way over the line and got, eventually, what he deserved. 

Good man managers know how to deal with people. I watched an interview with Ron Saunders when he gave his view that different players respond to different approaches. Some needed an arm around the shoulder and some a kick up the backside. He said, for example, if Tony Morley hadn’t had a bollocking by 10am Tony thought he’d fallen out with him. Morley himself tells a great story about Ron being on his back all week and then he scored and ran past the bench giving the Vs. He said he immediately regretted it, wondering what Saunders would say after the game. He said Ron didn’t say a word, but fined him 2 weeks wages a fortnight later!

Saunders was a strict disciplinarian, who knew how to get the best out of all his players, recognising their different characters and treating them accordingly, but he was never a bully. 

I understand the attitude that life is tough sometimes and there’s times when you need mental toughness. But bullying people doesn’t prepare people for tough times it just breaks them down. It’s a sledgehammer to crack a nut approach. My Dad had 14 years in the RAF, a couple of years at Dunlop’s and then went into teaching. The government at the time, which would have been the 60s, thought that men from industry would have life experience that would serve to make good teachers. A sensible approach that worked, for Dad anyway. He wasn’t a tough guy, but he didn’t take any nonsense. He seemed to have an affinity with kids, but was never a pushover, if you were in trouble you knew it. But he hated bullies and wouldn’t stand for any form of bullying, from teachers or pupils. That for me is the only approach.

There are lots of ways to build character and I’m not an advocate of wrapping kids in cotton wool, but bullying is just wrong. Using “character building” as an excuse is equally wrong. The idea that it wasn’t regarded as bullying at the time is again wrong. My Dad taught from the 60s to the early 90s and never bullied anyone in his life but he commanded respect the kids learned and developed as people.

Anyone who knows me wouldn’t class me as a hand wringing liberal and I do think that some kids today often don’t leave school with the life skills that prepare them for the world. Perhaps there is an element of mollycoddling in the education system and society on the whole. Although kids brought up in the inner city tend to find toughness pretty quickly. However the answer is never, ever bullying. 

Edited August 22, 2019 by DaveAV1

[rumourmill]

What you also have to remember this is a work situation . players being paid to train and play . Most living in digs away from family and friends at 16 . To then have to turn up to work each day to be physically and mentally abused by your bosses , who if you talk up can make you life even more misarable , must be tough to deal with . Any boss would be in trouble if they carried on like this . 

 

[lapal_fan]

I think the name calling on the previous page is pretty stupid, and embarrassing for both sides, but I can sort of see both points of view.

There have been players coming out in support of KMac previously, so he obviously wasn't just some vicious bully to the majority of the players. 

By the same token, as a coach you have to judge what each player thrives on, what makes them tick and what will make them perform better.  Some players need a kick up the arse, others need an arm round shoulder and a quiet word.  What Gareth Farrelly thought was terrible, was probably laughed off by players like Gabby etc.

The investigation has been conducted, and there was enough evidence to suggest that KMac went too far, and what he was doing did constitute bullying, which isn't acceptable, now - or in the late 90s. 

Even if 90% of the players thought KMac's methods were ok, the 10% didn't.  

There will always be players that aren't good enough in youth football though, which is why 98% of them never play first team football, so you'd imagine there is an awful lot of sadness and frustration when being let go.  

Without the details though, there's no point speculating exactly what he did or said, because we'll never find out unless one of the players comes out.

I'll stand by the investigation and the club and their choice to get rid. 

[bobzy]

I find it weird that bullying is being equated to “giving a kick up the arse”. It isn’t that at all. That people are brushing this off as old school methods is **** bizarre. 

[lapal_fan]

17 minutes ago, bobzy said:

I find it weird that bullying is being equated to “giving a kick up the arse”. It isn’t that at all. That people are brushing this off as old school methods is **** bizarre. 

Yea, that's not what I said (contextually). 

Edited August 22, 2019 by lapal_fan

[DCJonah]

4 hours ago, lapal_fan said:

I think the name calling on the previous page is pretty stupid, and embarrassing for both sides, but I can sort of see both points of view.

There have been players coming out in support of KMac previously, so he obviously wasn't just some vicious bully to the majority of the players. 

By the same token, as a coach you have to judge what each player thrives on, what makes them tick and what will make them perform better.  Some players need a kick up the arse, others need an arm round shoulder and a quiet word.  What Gareth Farrelly thought was terrible, was probably laughed off by players like Gabby etc.

The investigation has been conducted, and there was enough evidence to suggest that KMac went too far, and what he was doing did constitute bullying, which isn't acceptable, now - or in the late 90s. 

Even if 90% of the players thought KMac's methods were ok, the 10% didn't.  

There will always be players that aren't good enough in youth football though, which is why 98% of them never play first team football, so you'd imagine there is an awful lot of sadness and frustration when being let go.  

Without the details though, there's no point speculating exactly what he did or said, because we'll never find out unless one of the players comes out.

I'll stand by the investigation and the club and their choice to get rid. 

You are assuming that all K Mac did was use his methods and some didn't like it. Embarrassing. 

The man has been sacked after allegations of bullying and an internal investigation. Players who have suffered with depression and suicidal thoughts have had an apology from the club. I think some need to go and check what the word bullying means. 

 

 

[DCJonah]

4 hours ago, bobzy said:

I find it weird that bullying is being equated to “giving a kick up the arse”. It isn’t that at all. That people are brushing this off as old school methods is **** bizarre. 

This 100% 

I imagine it's because it's villa. Which makes it so much more pathetic. 

[lapal_fan]

15 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

You are assuming that all K Mac did was use his methods and some didn't like it. Embarrassing. 

The man has been sacked after allegations of bullying and an internal investigation. Players who have suffered with depression and suicidal thoughts have had an apology from the club. I think some need to go and check what the word bullying means. 

 

 

Nah I'm not.

Oooh, do I get to add a word now, to try and have some sort of superiority? 

Weird behavior. 

[DCJonah]

1 minute ago, lapal_fan said:

Nah I'm not.

Oooh, do I get to add a word now, to try and have some sort of superiority? 

Weird behavior. 

Well that's what you've posted. So yes weird behaviour indeed. 

I liked the bit about people not making it and being disappointed and frustrated. What on earth has that got to do with anything? Or are you implying this has led to people making accusations? 

 

[lapal_fan]

Just now, DCJonah said:

Well that's what you've posted. So yes weird behaviour indeed. 

I liked the bit about people not making it and being disappointed and frustrated. What on earth has that got to do with anything? Or are you implying this has led to people making accusations? 

 

"The investigation has been conducted, and there was enough evidence to suggest that KMac went too far, and what he was doing did constitute bullying, which isn't acceptable, now - or in the late 90s." - is what I said. 

The other point you're picking up incorrectly, is that even though to some players his methods were bullying, to other players it was just "his way", hence the support from ex-players.  I don't doubt that he could have just been out and out nasty to certain players though.  

I'm not underestimating the affect KMac has had on the mental or physical state of some players, on the evidence of the investigation the club have determined there WAS a problem, so I fully support their decision to get him out.

My point on players being let go wasn't anything to with KMac specifically either, it was more an observation that 1000s of players come through academies and very few make it, so there is a natural hierarchy, bravado, winners and losers type culture which is savage and caveman-esque.  Some people can deal with that, others can't.  I'm not excusing KMac's behavior, because as I've said, the report says he was a bully. 

[DCJonah]

1 minute ago, lapal_fan said:

"The investigation has been conducted, and there was enough evidence to suggest that KMac went too far, and what he was doing did constitute bullying, which isn't acceptable, now - or in the late 90s." - is what I said. 

The other point you're picking up incorrectly, is that even though to some players his methods were bullying, to other players it was just "his way", hence the support from ex-players.  I don't doubt that he could have just been out and out nasty to certain players though.  

I'm not underestimating the affect KMac has had on the mental or physical state of some players, on the evidence of the investigation the club have determined there WAS a problem, so I fully support their decision to get him out.

My point on players being let go wasn't anything to with KMac specifically either, it was more an observation that 1000s of players come through academies and very few make it, so there is a natural hierarchy, bravado, winners and losers type culture which is savage and caveman-esque.  Some people can deal with that, others can't.  I'm not excusing KMac's behavior, because as I've said, the report says he was a bully. 

You did and then followed it with.

"Even if 90% of the players thought KMac's methods were ok, the 10% didn't"

Which clearly implies it was his methods and some didn't think they were ok. Not that he actually bullied certain children. Coaches may have hard methods to try and get the best from their players. There seems to be confusion as to this and bullying. The bullying isn't a method to get the best from people. It's picking on vulnerable people. Kids don't suffer from depression and have suicidal thoughts because their coach, who wants the best for them, used some hard methods.  

It's very odd that you include a detailed point about kids who don't make it, yet it has no relation to the actual topic. Again, it certainly reads as though you think that not making it has played a part in all this for some. 

 

[lapal_fan]

2 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

You did and then followed it with.

"Even if 90% of the players thought KMac's methods were ok, the 10% didn't"

Which clearly implies it was his methods and some didn't think they were ok. Not that he actually bullied certain children. Coaches may have hard methods to try and get the best from their players. There seems to be confusion as to this and bullying. The bullying isn't a method to get the best from people. It's picking on vulnerable people. Kids don't suffer from depression and have suicidal thoughts because their coach, who wants the best for them, used some hard methods.  

It's very odd that you include a detailed point about kids who don't make it, yet it has no relation to the actual topic. Again, it certainly reads as though you think that not making it has played a part in all this for some. 

 

meh, whatever.  Bored now.

 

[DCJonah]

2 hours ago, lapal_fan said:

meh, whatever.  Bored now.

 

Offers a defence of a man sacked for bullying kids

Imply kids failing to make it is part of the problem.

Post a stupid gif when called out on it.

Stellar work in this thread. You've got to feel proud to get that in over a few hours in the day.

Not surprised.

[Xela]

That escalated quicker than one of K-Macs 'pep talks'