Gun violence in the USA

[Marka Ragnos]

I know this is absurd, but I can't stop trying to understand the connection between forks and guns . . .

You're being archly disingenuous, right? And if not, forgive my cynicism. You may just be, sadly, too intelligent to grasp the truth of pro-gun thinking. Sorry buddy -- move over and make some room for a dullard, who will instantly see how forks and guns are, in fact, ingeniously similar.

They are both metal, for example. Except for those plastic "sporks" when you order KFC. They both can be used to stir soup. They both can be purchased at Wal-MART.

But what you read above from Kingman is a fairly commonplace (if not especially articulate), rehearsal of a pro-gun argument-by-analogy in the States.

Roughly: "Guns don't hurt people, people hurt people. A gun is simply 'a tool.' To blame a gun for a problem of human character (murderousness) is like blaming a fork for the actions of an overeater."

That's what Kingman is trying to say, I think, but if you're really smart, like Hanoi, well, forget it. Go back to your Egghead Boffin nest and quit trying to "get" this low-brow stuff.

And yes, it's absurd. But we all knew that. Almost all of us.

 

Edited October 13, 2015 by Plastic Man

[CrackpotForeigner]

The biggest hole I can see in the argument is that everyone has to eat, but not everyone has to kill somebody.

 

Ban guns and you're taking away the ability to kill. Ban forks and you're just being a bit of a tosser, really

[TrinityRoadSteps]

What about forks in the road. Do we need to ban them too. Maybe just have normal junctions instead 

[HanoiVillan]

I know this is absurd, but I can't stop trying to understand the connection between forks and guns . . .

You're being archly disingenuous, right? And if not, forgive my cynicism. You may just be, sadly, too intelligent to grasp the truth of pro-gun thinking. Sorry buddy -- move over and make some room for a dullard, who will instantly see how forks and guns are, in fact, ingeniously similar.

They are both metal, for example. Except for those plastic "sporks" when you order KFC. They both can be used to stir soup. They both can be purchased at Wal-MART.

But what you read above from Kingman is a fairly commonplace (if not especially articulate), rehearsal of a pro-gun argument-by-analogy in the States.

Roughly: "Guns don't hurt people, people hurt people. A gun is simply 'a tool.' To blame a gun for a problem of human character (murderousness) is like blaming a fork for the actions of an overeater."

That's what Kingman is trying to say, I think, but if you're really smart, like Hanoi, well, forget it. Go back to your Egghead Boffin nest and quit trying to "get" this low-brow stuff.

And yes, it's absurd. But we all knew that. Almost all of us.

 

I genuinely wasn't trying to be disingenuous. And you give me too much credit, I really wasn't following that point at all. 

However, if you've summarised it correctly, then CrackpotForeigner has obviously pointed out the way in which they're not similar at all - 'eating food' being an activity for survival of the species, whereas 'shooting family members during heated arguments' isn't particularly necessary for human survival. 

I also don't think a fork is a tool that causes obesity. There are two connections between not doing enough exercise, drinking soft drinks and alcohol, and eating pizzas, burgers, kebabs, Subway sandwiches, hotdogs, chocolate bars, bags of crisps and other junk food. The connections are 'they cause obesity' and 'they don't require a fork'. If my life is in any way average, I generally use cutlery when I'm eating well-prepared, home-cooked food with vegetables, and my hands when I'm eating garbage. Banning forks might very well cause more obesity, but surely no-one can think banning guns will cause more gun deaths?

[Stevo985]

If a psychopath walks into a school armed with a fork then he won't do as much damage as he would if he had a gun.

We've solved it. Take away everybody's guns and give them a fork to keep them happy.

 

"Hello, Barack? I hope you're sitting down..."

[Keyblade]

I think whatever it is about American society that makes entitled young mostly white dudes who can't handle not getting laid want to massacre people should be addressed too.

[Eames]

The frustration the rest of the world feels on this issue stems from the fact that it is such an easy problem to remedy. 

 

Civilians don't need auto or semi-auto weapons full stop. 

No civilian needs the ability to carry (either open or concealed) a firearm as part of their day to day lives. 

Students at university's don't need to carry firearms. 

Teachers don't need to carry firearms. 

 

The reason nutjobs with guns target schools and cinema lines is because they are fairly easy to gain access to, there are large numbers of people in confined areas who are not expecting an assault. The other reason of course schools/colleges get targeted is because those are the places the nutters with guns are turned into nutters with guns either by bullying/social exclusion or some perceived injustice. Putting a whole bunch of other people with guns into those environments will just make that worse not better. Given the US Police's less than glowing reputation for restraint and clear thinking, teachers who pull weapons to deal with intruders are just as likely to be gunned down themselves by a bunch of uniformed cowboys as a result of mistaken identity. The other issue is of course a nutter with a knife will ultimately kill far fewer people before getting overpowered and it is far easier to do so than a nutter with pump actions or auto 9mms. Harder to overpower and easier to kill potential heroes at a distance. 

 

You don't make violence in society less likely by giving people more and more tools to conduct violence with. Take the tools away and it gets harder. 

 

 

 

[PompeyVillan]

Killing someone with a knife or with your hands is intense. It takes an extreme level of violence to see it through.

Gunning someone down is disconnected from that somewhat. You pull the trigger and bang someone dies.

British culture is pretty violent itself. Imagine how all those fights outside nightclubs would end if everyone could own a gun?

[Eames]

Killing someone with a knife or with your hands is intense. It takes an extreme level of violence to see it through.

 

Gunning someone down is disconnected from that somewhat. You pull the trigger and bang someone dies.

 

British culture is pretty violent itself. Imagine how all those fights outside nightclubs would end if everyone could own a gun?

 

 

 

 

I'd argue that pissed up people outside nightclubs do not represent "British culture" in the same way that toting guns represent "American culture"

 

I have no stats at all to back this up but I'd be very surprised if the UK was anywhere near as "violent" in terms of crime stats when compared to the USA. 

[Kingman]

I know this is absurd, but I can't stop trying to understand the connection between forks and guns . . .

You're being archly disingenuous, right? And if not, forgive my cynicism. You may just be, sadly, too intelligent to grasp the truth of pro-gun thinking. Sorry buddy -- move over and make some room for a dullard, who will instantly see how forks and guns are, in fact, ingeniously similar.

They are both metal, for example. Except for those plastic "sporks" when you order KFC. They both can be used to stir soup. They both can be purchased at Wal-MART.

But what you read above from Kingman is a fairly commonplace (if not especially articulate), rehearsal of a pro-gun argument-by-analogy in the States.

Roughly: "Guns don't hurt people, people hurt people. A gun is simply 'a tool.' To blame a gun for a problem of human character (murderousness) is like blaming a fork for the actions of an overeater."

That's what Kingman is trying to say, I think, but if you're really smart, like Hanoi, well, forget it. Go back to your Egghead Boffin nest and quit trying to "get" this low-brow stuff.

And yes, it's absurd. But we all knew that. Almost all of us.

 

Glad you could be arsed to put it into simpleton… 

Tough Crowd.

[Kingman]

I know this is absurd, but I can't stop trying to understand the connection between forks and guns . . .

You're being archly disingenuous, right? And if not, forgive my cynicism. You may just be, sadly, too intelligent to grasp the truth of pro-gun thinking. Sorry buddy -- move over and make some room for a dullard, who will instantly see how forks and guns are, in fact, ingeniously similar.

They are both metal, for example. Except for those plastic "sporks" when you order KFC. They both can be used to stir soup. They both can be purchased at Wal-MART.

But what you read above from Kingman is a fairly commonplace (if not especially articulate), rehearsal of a pro-gun argument-by-analogy in the States.

Roughly: "Guns don't hurt people, people hurt people. A gun is simply 'a tool.' To blame a gun for a problem of human character (murderousness) is like blaming a fork for the actions of an overeater."

That's what Kingman is trying to say, I think, but if you're really smart, like Hanoi, well, forget it. Go back to your Egghead Boffin nest and quit trying to "get" this low-brow stuff.

And yes, it's absurd. But we all knew that. Almost all of us.

 

I genuinely wasn't trying to be disingenuous. And you give me too much credit, I really wasn't following that point at all. 

However, if you've summarised it correctly, then CrackpotForeigner has obviously pointed out the way in which they're not similar at all - 'eating food' being an activity for survival of the species, whereas 'shooting family members during heated arguments' isn't particularly necessary for human survival. 

I also don't think a fork is a tool that causes obesity. There are two connections between not doing enough exercise, drinking soft drinks and alcohol, and eating pizzas, burgers, kebabs, Subway sandwiches, hotdogs, chocolate bars, bags of crisps and other junk food. The connections are 'they cause obesity' and 'they don't require a fork'. If my life is in any way average, I generally use cutlery when I'm eating well-prepared, home-cooked food with vegetables, and my hands when I'm eating garbage. Banning forks might very well cause more obesity, but surely no-one can think banning guns will cause more gun deaths?

Exactly… No go back a page and read what i said. 

[Chindie]

I don't agree with this, but it's an interesting take on gun control from the perspective of someone very much against it but a little more nuanced than the usual arguments (although they are takes on those usual trains of thought). It's a long listen and the first 10 minutes are skippable as general whinging. I like some of what he says without necessarily agreeing with almost any of it.

 

[El Zen]

What about forks in the road.

Take 'em!

(RIP Yogi)

Edited October 13, 2015 by Michelsen

[HanoiVillan]

I know this is absurd, but I can't stop trying to understand the connection between forks and guns . . .

You're being archly disingenuous, right? And if not, forgive my cynicism. You may just be, sadly, too intelligent to grasp the truth of pro-gun thinking. Sorry buddy -- move over and make some room for a dullard, who will instantly see how forks and guns are, in fact, ingeniously similar.

They are both metal, for example. Except for those plastic "sporks" when you order KFC. They both can be used to stir soup. They both can be purchased at Wal-MART.

But what you read above from Kingman is a fairly commonplace (if not especially articulate), rehearsal of a pro-gun argument-by-analogy in the States.

Roughly: "Guns don't hurt people, people hurt people. A gun is simply 'a tool.' To blame a gun for a problem of human character (murderousness) is like blaming a fork for the actions of an overeater."

That's what Kingman is trying to say, I think, but if you're really smart, like Hanoi, well, forget it. Go back to your Egghead Boffin nest and quit trying to "get" this low-brow stuff.

And yes, it's absurd. But we all knew that. Almost all of us.

 

I genuinely wasn't trying to be disingenuous. And you give me too much credit, I really wasn't following that point at all. 

However, if you've summarised it correctly, then CrackpotForeigner has obviously pointed out the way in which they're not similar at all - 'eating food' being an activity for survival of the species, whereas 'shooting family members during heated arguments' isn't particularly necessary for human survival. 

I also don't think a fork is a tool that causes obesity. There are two connections between not doing enough exercise, drinking soft drinks and alcohol, and eating pizzas, burgers, kebabs, Subway sandwiches, hotdogs, chocolate bars, bags of crisps and other junk food. The connections are 'they cause obesity' and 'they don't require a fork'. If my life is in any way average, I generally use cutlery when I'm eating well-prepared, home-cooked food with vegetables, and my hands when I'm eating garbage. Banning forks might very well cause more obesity, but surely no-one can think banning guns will cause more gun deaths?

Exactly… No go back a page and read what i said. 

Why don't you try putting your argument into plain English rather than sneering about 'simpletons'? Is what you're trying to say basically a variant on 'guns don't kill people, people kill people'? Again, I'm not trying to be obtuse here. 

[Kingman]

I know this is absurd, but I can't stop trying to understand the connection between forks and guns . . .

You're being archly disingenuous, right? And if not, forgive my cynicism. You may just be, sadly, too intelligent to grasp the truth of pro-gun thinking. Sorry buddy -- move over and make some room for a dullard, who will instantly see how forks and guns are, in fact, ingeniously similar.

They are both metal, for example. Except for those plastic "sporks" when you order KFC. They both can be used to stir soup. They both can be purchased at Wal-MART.

But what you read above from Kingman is a fairly commonplace (if not especially articulate), rehearsal of a pro-gun argument-by-analogy in the States.

Roughly: "Guns don't hurt people, people hurt people. A gun is simply 'a tool.' To blame a gun for a problem of human character (murderousness) is like blaming a fork for the actions of an overeater."

That's what Kingman is trying to say, I think, but if you're really smart, like Hanoi, well, forget it. Go back to your Egghead Boffin nest and quit trying to "get" this low-brow stuff.

And yes, it's absurd. But we all knew that. Almost all of us.

 

I genuinely wasn't trying to be disingenuous. And you give me too much credit, I really wasn't following that point at all. 

However, if you've summarised it correctly, then CrackpotForeigner has obviously pointed out the way in which they're not similar at all - 'eating food' being an activity for survival of the species, whereas 'shooting family members during heated arguments' isn't particularly necessary for human survival. 

I also don't think a fork is a tool that causes obesity. There are two connections between not doing enough exercise, drinking soft drinks and alcohol, and eating pizzas, burgers, kebabs, Subway sandwiches, hotdogs, chocolate bars, bags of crisps and other junk food. The connections are 'they cause obesity' and 'they don't require a fork'. If my life is in any way average, I generally use cutlery when I'm eating well-prepared, home-cooked food with vegetables, and my hands when I'm eating garbage. Banning forks might very well cause more obesity, but surely no-one can think banning guns will cause more gun deaths?

Exactly… No go back a page and read what i said. 

Why don't you try putting your argument into plain English rather than sneering about 'simpletons'? Is what you're trying to say basically a variant on 'guns don't kill people, people kill people'? Again, I'm not trying to be obtuse here. 

 

Edited October 13, 2015 by Kingman

[HanoiVillan]

EDIT: deleted for continuing an argument everyone is desperate to read no more of. 

 

Edited October 13, 2015 by HanoiVillan

[Marka Ragnos]

I know this is absurd, but I can't stop trying to understand the connection between forks and guns . . .

You're being archly disingenuous, right? And if not, forgive my cynicism. You may just be, sadly, too intelligent to grasp the truth of pro-gun thinking. Sorry buddy -- move over and make some room for a dullard, who will instantly see how forks and guns are, in fact, ingeniously similar.

They are both metal, for example. Except for those plastic "sporks" when you order KFC. They both can be used to stir soup. They both can be purchased at Wal-MART.

But what you read above from Kingman is a fairly commonplace (if not especially articulate), rehearsal of a pro-gun argument-by-analogy in the States.

Roughly: "Guns don't hurt people, people hurt people. A gun is simply 'a tool.' To blame a gun for a problem of human character (murderousness) is like blaming a fork for the actions of an overeater."

That's what Kingman is trying to say, I think, but if you're really smart, like Hanoi, well, forget it. Go back to your Egghead Boffin nest and quit trying to "get" this low-brow stuff.

And yes, it's absurd. But we all knew that. Almost all of us.

 

Glad you could be arsed to put it into simpleton… 

Tough Crowd.

Your word! The false equivalencies of the pro-gun movement in America are pernicious threats to public health and the fabric of the nation. They are a perverse and dangerous mythology. The issue has gone way beyond reasoned debate, and I have no respect for pro-gun pseudo-arguments. 

Their "arguments" in support of private gun ownership and their willfully ignorant takes on the Second Amendment don't appeal to intelligence, logic, statistics, research. You can never win or gain concessions. If repeated massacres of children and other innocents aren't enough to prompt changes in the gun movement's positions, nothing will. 

Our local gun range is surrounded by tiny Confederate flags. I live nowhere near the South. Says it all, to me. 

People who fetishize guns inhabit a dangerous fantasy world, and it's one that churns out dead bodies faster than any other non-natural cause. 

10 Pro-Gun Myths, Shot Down

Fact-checking some of the gun lobby's favorite arguments shows they're full of holes.

 

America's Top Killing Machine

Gun deaths are poised to surpass automobile deaths in the United States this year.

 

Edited October 13, 2015 by Plastic Man

[PongRiddims]

I think you two should just have a shootout to resolve this

[TrentVilla]

I feel the anti gun lobby in the U.S. are really focusing on the wrong issue.

I mean how many people in the U.S die every year from heart attacks, cardiac arrests, heart conditions and defects? It has to be more than get shot at the school, cinema or supermarket I mean have you seen how fat every single living American is?

What they need to do is bad hearts, ban their use altogether rather than worrying about guns.

Seemingly most the country care more about their rights than the rights of kids not to be shot so I'd suggest it's a largely obsolete organ for many anyway.

 

 

 

 

[Jon]

Every time I see this thread, it gives me 'French Kissing in The USA' by Kim Wilde as an earworm ...