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Marka Ragnos

Gun violence in the USA

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6 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

 

Or should I currently be going to bed with a machete under the pillow? just in case a rogue butcher breaks in loudly and slowly?

If you want to do that, feel free to do so. 

If however, you make that machete available to someone not able to use it, or use it to harm others without self defence in mind, I think that the law should be there to punish you very harshly.

Also, sarcasm does not get you any brownie points in a discussion that just a few posts ago you said "could actually teach us something".

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6 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

Let's look at Switzerland in that case. Or Brazil. It might just prove that cultural differences and crime rate might play a part here.

Again, I am not for guns (and I feel like I have been bullied by numbers in this conversation!) and I agree that if we had less guns there would be less crime. 

I think that @Chindie is right in his latest post. 

But to discredit all arguments for guns or claiming that "getting rid of guns" will fix the problems is a very shortsighted tactic.

 

Switzerland is a different cultural background to the US and it is a good one to look at. I don’t know much on that but I think gun ownership is much lower than in the US and getting a gun and then getting ammunition is far more difficult. 

I think suicide by gun is quite high in Switzerland?

I contest that getting rid of guns really would fix the problem of gun crime. Just as reducing the number of guns would reduce the problem of gun crime. That’s just simple logic.

1 minute ago, Mic09 said:

If you want to do that, feel free to do so. 

If however, you make that machete available to someone not able to use it, or use it to harm others without self defence in mind, I think that the law should be there to punish you very harshly.

Also, sarcasm does not get you any brownie points in a discussion that just a few posts ago you said "could actually teach us something".

If I can’t do sarcasm, I’m going to be quite restricted. Don’t take it personally, it’s part of my schtick.

Imagine if I was sarcastic in a country full of self medicated roided up gun owners.

Your point about the Swiss has sent me off down a google stats rabbit hole. 

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13 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Switzerland is a different cultural background to the US and it is a good one to look at. I don’t know much on that but I think gun ownership is much lower than in the US and getting a gun and then getting ammunition is far more difficult. 

I think suicide by gun is quite high in Switzerland?

I contest that getting rid of guns really would fix the problem of gun crime. Just as reducing the number of guns would reduce the problem of gun crime. That’s just simple logic.

If I can’t do sarcasm, I’m going to be quite restricted. Don’t take it personally, it’s part of my schtick.

Imagine if I was sarcastic in a country full of self medicated roided up gun owners.

Your point about the Swiss has sent me off down a google stats rabbit hole. 

Well, I also pointed to Brazil. You need a special permit to carry a gun outside of home and the laws to own a gun are more restrictive in the US. Yet, the gun crime and death is higher than US.

You are right about the cultural differences, and that could be the key in the debate.

Swiss have mandatory army training so gun crime rate is lower. I think suicide rate is higher, but than again Finland is crazy high in suicides and no guns in sight.

Again, I am not for guns. BUT this is such a complex issue that discarding anything pro gun people have to say will take us no further in reaching a consensus that can save lives AND protect the liberties that US citizens currently enjoy.

Edited by Mic09

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3 hours ago, Chindie said:

You can't uninvent the bomb. If you enacted gun laws in the US, people would still get shot and die. That isn't why people want gun laws, they don't think laws will magically make gun deaths vanish.

What they might do, though, is massively reduce them. Particularly the kind where someone goes to their local gun store and buys a 'hunting rifle' that could cull all the deer in the state in 5 seconds if they stood in a line, and then walks into a school and culls the kids instead. It would reduce the the instances of people flipping and going down in a 'blaze of glory', otherwise known as being a mass murderer.

Not only that but if some weapons and their ammunition is outlawed then over time the guns in circulation wear out and drop out of society. 

These kinds of law changes are usually accompanied by a buy back scheme as well which makes a dent in the available stock. 

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I was arguing with someone on YouTube last night who said" America is a safe country BECAUSE so many people have guns"

 

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3 hours ago, maqroll said:

I was arguing with someone on YouTube last night who said" America is a safe country BECAUSE so many people have guns"

 

I live in the USA. rest assured that person was just a Republican, not a normal American.  You can rest easy knowing whatever arguments they were making were invented on the spot. Just ignore them or even better be very patronising to them and let them know you are from the UK. It absolutely drives them bonkers when people look down their noses at them, its also great fun :) 

Normal Americans however are intelligent sane people with a growing majority in favour of gun control.

 

 

Edited by ciggiesnbeer
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1 hour ago, ciggiesnbeer said:

let them know you are from the UK

That might be problematic

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A post from someone on a New York based message board I use.. 

Six cops were right there in Dayton and put down the shooter in 32 seconds.

He still got off 41 rounds, struck 26 different people, killing nine.

You can never really protect yourself, aside from maybe a very specific situation. 

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15 hours ago, Mic09 said:



There are many hypotheticals and assumptions in play here so using an anecdotal example might not prove effective. You might be right, but I could be right too. We just don't know. 
 

But we do know, that's the thing. 

Numbers are brilliant. They can tell you almost anything. Why is it that if you list first world countries by the number of gun owners, and number of shootings, that there is a parallel? Because the relationship between more guns and more shootings is actually quite obvious. 

Yes, you're right, that the strictest gun laws in the world won't stop mass shootings, but why does that mean there shouldn't be gun laws? Again, the parallel between gun owners and mass shootings shows that more guns leads to MORE mass shootings. 

In an ideal world there wouldn't be any. But just because we don't live in that ideal world, doesn't mean we should throw away all sensibility. 

The UK isn't perfect. But our gun crime and homicide rates are so miniminal that it shows, in terms of guns, we're about as good as its going to get. There will still be shootings, but these are infrequent. The US is averaging 1 mass shooting per day. Your 1 man bring shot, that would be huge news here, isn't even newsworthy over there, and that's sad. 

 

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17 minutes ago, kurtsimonw said:

But we do know, that's the thing. 

Numbers are brilliant. They can tell you almost anything. Why is it that if you list first world countries by the number of gun owners, and number of shootings, that there is a parallel? Because the relationship between more guns and more shootings is actually quite obvious. 

Yes, you're right, that the strictest gun laws in the world won't stop mass shootings, but why does that mean there shouldn't be gun laws? Again, the parallel between gun owners and mass shootings shows that more guns leads to MORE mass shootings. 

In an ideal world there wouldn't be any. But just because we don't live in that ideal world, doesn't mean we should throw away all sensibility. 

The UK isn't perfect. But our gun crime and homicide rates are so miniminal that it shows, in terms of guns, we're about as good as its going to get. There will still be shootings, but these are infrequent. The US is averaging 1 mass shooting per day. Your 1 man bring shot, that would be huge news here, isn't even newsworthy over there, and that's sad. 

 

Austria have the most relaxed gun laws in the EU and 30 guns per 100 citizens. Yet, there isn't much debate about Austria, nor do we hear about mass shootings.

Brazil have very strict gun laws and it's got the highest gun crime rate in the world.

I really think that taking the US example (which is extreme by any measures) does not paint the true picture of more legal guns = more gun crime.


 

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23 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

Austria have the most relaxed gun laws in the EU and 30 guns per 100 citizens. Yet, there isn't much debate about Austria, nor do we hear about mass shootings.

Brazil have very strict gun laws and it's got the highest gun crime rate in the world.

I really think that taking the US example (which is extreme by any measures) does not paint the true picture of more legal guns = more gun crime.
 

As you say, there will be outliers, and of course there will be other factors. Lesser developed countries will always be more open to crime, regardless of laws. It's no real surprise the entirety of central/south America are at the top of the charts.

You mention Austria not being an "issue" as such. Yet of all European countries, they are among the top in gun crime.

I am not of the belief that it's 100% accurate that more guns = more gun crime, because the issue is more complex than that. But it's certainly a leading factor.

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Guns laws in Europe is a bit different.

We have very strict gun laws in Sweden but with weapons flooding in from former Yugoslavia after the war there there are grenades and handguns available for very little money.

Quite a few shootings happening nowadays, almost exclusively between criminal gangs.

Almost unheard of people being shot with registered guns, just doesn't happen here.

Only criminals have handguns here. Hunting rifles are pretty common but you need licence and a metal weapon cabinet to have them at home.

As a general rule people are morons, so much safer knowing they are at least not armed morons here.

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13 hours ago, sne said:

Guns laws in Europe is a bit different.

We have very strict gun laws in Sweden but with weapons flooding in from former Yugoslavia after the war there there are grenades and handguns available for very little money.

Quite a few shootings happening nowadays, almost exclusively between criminal gangs.

Almost unheard of people being shot with registered guns, just doesn't happen here.

Only criminals have handguns here. Hunting rifles are pretty common but you need licence and a metal weapon cabinet to have them at home.

As a general rule people are morons, so much safer knowing they are at least not armed morons here.

Reminds me, I was talking to one of my cousins in Sweden. There was a loud bang and I ask her what was that, and she goes "oh it's just a car bomb". I was in shock and she was so casual about it :lol:

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On 04/09/2019 at 17:45, Mic09 said:

this is such a complex issue that discarding anything pro gun people have to say will take us no further in reaching a consensus that can save lives AND protect the liberties that US citizens currently enjoy.

Seems like 'protecting the liberties that US citizens currently enjoy' is a large part of the problem to be honest. 

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6 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

Seems like 'protecting the liberties that US citizens currently enjoy' is a large part of the problem to be honest. 

It's a totally different culture and outlook on life. 

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1 hour ago, Mic09 said:

It's a totally different culture and outlook on life. 

Sure. 'Divided by a common language' etc. But, contra your points yesterday, making firearm sales illegal certainly would reduce gun deaths, so I don't feel as much mourning as I used to. As a country, they have chosen to uphold their culture over protecting human life, and that's their choice to make (they have sovereignty after all), but it *is* a conscious decision. 

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1 hour ago, BillyShears said:

Just out of interest, UK people, who carries a weapon in their car?

I have a friend who does, he had a bad case of road rage maybe 10 years back, guy got out of his car and kicked his door shouting at him trying to get him to step out of his car and fight him, scared the shit out him

he now has a metal pole / baton of some sort under his seat

the point with that is though is that the crazy dickhead who attacked his car had nothing on him, he was just a big horrible bastard with an anger issue, imagine if they both had guns...

 

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On 04/09/2019 at 22:31, maqroll said:

I was arguing with someone on YouTube last night who said" America is a safe country BECAUSE so many people have guns"

 

That was your first mistake.

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