Vive_La_Villa Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 20 minutes ago, bickster said: The only fair way of course is the Corbyn idea... let anyone in It’s the fair approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 13 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said: But I don’t think our government policies are fair to non EU citizens. I’m probably wrong about that and I’m sure you’ll correct me. What do you mean by not 'fair to non-EU citizens'? You appear to be confusing different with unfair. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 1 minute ago, snowychap said: What do you mean by not 'fair to non-EU citizens'? You appear to be confusing different with unfair. Maybe I am. Is it not unfair that a skilled Indian has to return after one year when a Romanian (skilled or not) can stay indefinitely? The only difference between the two workers is where they were born. Is that fair? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 39 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said: A few friends of mine have had to return to India though after their 1 year visa has expired. Very skilled programmers too. Now that strikes me as very much less than sensible but I really don't see why it is 'unfair' unless they've been promised a longer visa or they've been done over by the Home Office (very possible - see lots of action against people who are not having visas extended until or unless their case is raised in the press) &c. If you're merely saying that they'd not have had to do it if they were Romanian (or Italian or French) then you're not making a sensible comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 17, 2019 Moderator Share Posted November 17, 2019 Just now, Vive_La_Villa said: Is that fair? Yes because those are the respective agreements and treaties applicable to those people Now if you were to argue that Person A can bring his wife in no bother but Person B can't because although both Persons A and B are British subjects, Person B's wife has non whiite skin, that would be unfair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, bickster said: Yes because those are the respective agreements and treaties applicable to those people Now if you were to argue that Person A can bring his wife in no bother but Person B can't because although both Persons A and B are British subjects, Person B's wife has non whiite skin, that would be unfair Ok what if person B has to meet a lot of criteria such as earning a certain amount and having a certain amount saved before they can bring their wife in because she is a non EU citizen. Person A’s wife is from an EU country so no restrictions. Is that fair? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 17, 2019 Moderator Share Posted November 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Vive_La_Villa said: Ok what if person B has to meet a lot of criteria such as earning a certain amount and having a certain amount saved before they can bring their wife in because she is a non EU citizen. Person A’s wife is from an EU country so no restrictions. Is that fair? Yes, see previous answer regarding treaties and agreements And because of that an EU citizen (currently) wouldn't need any permission as such Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 9 minutes ago, snowychap said: Now that strikes me as very much less than sensible but I really don't see why it is 'unfair' unless they've been promised a longer visa or they've been done over by the Home Office (very possible - see lots of action against people who are not having visas extended until or unless their case is raised in the press) &c. If you're merely saying that they'd not have had to do it if they were Romanian (or Italian or French) then you're not making a sensible comparison. It’s probably not a sensible comparison but if the government said leaving the EU would mean they are able to allow more non EU workers enter the country would that not then make it fairer for the Indian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said: Is it not unfair that a skilled Indian has to return after one year when a Romanian (skilled or not) can stay indefinitely? As above, because you are ignoring everything else and taking this out of context, you're not making a sensible comparison. The reason the person from Romania has the right to stay (under circumstances as specified by the treaties - it is not an unqualified right) is the same reason that UK citizens have the right to go and live and work in France. You cannot split this out and talk about it as something that happens one way. 5 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said: The only difference between the two workers is where they were born. Is that fair? That's a much broader question. If you're arguing for freedom of movement for all everywhere then that's fine - I suspect you're not as I've not heard you make the same argument for an uneducated, unskilled Mongolian farmer as you have for your regular example of Indian IT workers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 17, 2019 Moderator Share Posted November 17, 2019 Just now, Vive_La_Villa said: It’s probably not a sensible comparison but if the government said leaving the EU would mean they are able to allow more non EU workers enter the country would that not then make it fairer for the Indian? No it would make it easier for the Indian, this does not equate to fairness, it would be a result of FTAs with India and our lack of a FTA with the EU. Again, treaties and agreements Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 1 minute ago, snowychap said: As above, because you are ignoring everything else and taking this out of context, you're not making a sensible comparison. The reason the person from Romania has the right to stay (under circumstances as specified by the treaties - it is not an unqualified right) is the same reason that UK citizens have the right to go and live and work in France. You cannot split this out and talk about it as something that happens one way. That's a much broader question. If you're arguing for freedom of movement for all everywhere then that's fine - I suspect you're not as I've not heard you make the same argument for an uneducated, unskilled Mongolian farmer as you have for your regular example of Indian IT workers. Did I really say unskilled Mongolian farmer? I think you might have made that up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said: It’s probably not a sensible comparison but if the government said leaving the EU would mean they are able to allow more non EU workers enter the country would that not then make it fairer for the Indian? Are you only worried about ex colonies, or is there a more world wide concern? Will Chile and Morocco be getting the same rights as India? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 4 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said: It’s probably not a sensible comparison but if the government said leaving the EU would mean they are able to allow more non EU workers enter the country would that not then make it fairer for the Indian? So it is about fairness to the Indian worker and not fairness across the board? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 Just now, snowychap said: So it is about fairness to the Indian worker and not fairness across the board? Across the board. I used Indian worker as an example. The same way I apparently used the Mongolian worker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said: Did I really say unskilled Mongolian farmer? I think you might have made that up. You should read what I posted again. I said: 5 minutes ago, snowychap said: ... I've not heard you make the same argument for an uneducated, unskilled Mongolian farmer as you have for your regular example of Indian IT workers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Are you only worried about ex colonies, or is there a more world wide concern? Will Chile and Morocco be getting the same rights as India? I’d hope so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 Just now, Vive_La_Villa said: Across the board. I used Indian worker as an example. The same way I apparently used the Mongolian worker. You didn't. That's his point. That's the whole problem with your terrible argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 195 nations. Gonna need a bigger admin.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 4 minutes ago, snowychap said: You should read what I posted again. I said: Sorry misread your post. Yes applies to the the Mongolian worker too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 Just now, Vive_La_Villa said: Across the board. I used Indian worker as an example. The same way I apparently used the Mongolian worker. Again, as before, if you are arguing for all everywhere then fine - I don't have any problem with that* but I haven't heard you argue that. I have heard you argue that the immigration opportunities in to the UK for EU citizens should be reduced in order that non-EU citizens should have theirs increased. *Before anyone interjects, I understand the practical difficulties with it but as a principle and an ideal end goal, it's most definitely where I'd like the world to end up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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