chrisp65 Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 43 minutes ago, Genie said: In a way more actually helps, but like with Trump. When more and more come out of the woodwork they kind of cancel each other out and it becomes less of a thing and doesn't stick. Maybe, I do get your point. But we’re not quite the USA yet and the base of Tory support is the elderly and they can be convinced that perhaps he’s a bit of a sexually incontinent compulsive liar. It also gets harder for his ministers to forgive and defend yet another business grant to a girlfriend, yet another late night visit from the police, another previously unknown child. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 1 hour ago, ml1dch said: Who? And how? What would be the constitutional procedure for "someone else (to) become pm" if he hasn't formally resigned and recommended a successor? Dismissal by Brenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 10 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: But we’re not quite the USA yet and the base of Tory support is the elderly and they can be convinced that perhaps he’s a bit of a sexually incontinent compulsive liar. Perhaps for a small number this might matter, but I think most of them just ignore it, or make light of it, like that tool Ashcroft when interviewed by Owen Jones at the Tory conference. "Lord Ashcroft, do you trust Boris Johnson?" "What do you mean? Trust him with my missus? (snigger)". In the US, very many right wing Christians seem to be content to write off Trump's history of sexual assault, excusing it as "locker room talk", or "what men do", although it flies in the face of what they profess to believe. I think the same attitude exists here. Even many years ago, in a more prudish and strait-laced age, provincial Grantham was content to ignore Alderman Roberts' persistent sexual assaults against his female shop assistants, because he was outwardly pious and respectable, and held a position of some power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted October 3, 2019 Author Moderator Share Posted October 3, 2019 2 hours ago, ml1dch said: Who? And how? What would be the constitutional procedure for "someone else (to) become pm" if he hasn't formally resigned and recommended a successor? Snowy posted details of how it works, I think - ages ago (or it seems like it). What I'm trying to put across is that He's PM until he's no longer pm, and that exact point coincides with a different person becoming pm/responsible - i.e. at no point are we actually lacking a person who could hand over the request for an extension. If he were to resign "with immediate effect" or just walk out, or jump under a big red bus with some writing on it, his deputy (or de facto deputy) would then be the person responsible. Gulp. And if, somehow, not then parliament /the law would instruct/require a senior representative to hand over the request. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 Better a sex pest than a socialist. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 30 minutes ago, blandy said: Snowy posted details of how it works, I think - ages ago (or it seems like it). What I'm trying to put across is that He's PM until he's no longer pm, and that exact point coincides with a different person becoming pm/responsible - i.e. at no point are we actually lacking a person who could hand over the request for an extension. If he were to resign "with immediate effect" or just walk out, or jump under a big red bus with some writing on it, his deputy (or de facto deputy) would then be the person responsible. Gulp. And if, somehow, not then parliament /the law would instruct/require a senior representative to hand over the request. The Cabinet Manual says Quote Recent examples suggest that previous Prime Ministers have not offered their resignations until there was a situation in which clear advice could be given to the Sovereign on who should be asked to form a government. It remains to be seen whether or not these examples will be regarded in future as having established a constitutional convention. We do not have a Deputy PM. It is quite possible the current lot could argue that there was not, in the event of Johnson resigning, a person charged with the responsibility of the PM, until such point as one was formally chosen. I can image some potential gaming around timings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted October 3, 2019 Author Moderator Share Posted October 3, 2019 11 minutes ago, peterms said: The Cabinet Manual says We do not have a Deputy PM. It is quite possible the current lot could argue that there was not, in the event of Johnson resigning, a person charged with the responsibility of the PM, until such point as one was formally chosen. I can image some potential gaming around timings. Sure we don't have a formal deputy. I mentioned "or de facto deputy"- yesterday Raab (Gulp) stood in at the Question thing with Abbott. I guess the thing is if there's either a PM, or de facto deputy, then he/she would have to hand over the request, and if there's no "reponsible PM/deputising person, then Parliament sends Sir Tufton Fortesque-Smyth*, a senior civil servant (or someone else) to hand over the request. *pronounced "Beryl Collins" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 9 minutes ago, peterms said: It is quite possible the current lot could argue that there was not, in the event of Johnson resigning, a person charged with the responsibility of the PM, until such point as one was formally chosen. I can image some potential gaming around timings. I can also imagine that but I think that there might be some other resignations if they were to do so even allowing for the fact (and this would be probably what they want or where they're going with it) that it would probably force an actual no confidence vote. He has been appointed PM by the Queen and until he resigns or is dismissed he remains the person charged with the responsibilities of that office. As per the Supreme Court judgment the other week, the Prime Minister has constitutional responsibilities. I think courts would be quite quick, on the back of that, to assert that the person holding the office needs to carry out all the responsibilities of it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 Leaving aside the possibility of an EU state vetoing a request for an extension, it seems the main ploy is to exit by default at the end of the month. If they can't reverse or suspend the Benn Act, then the only thing consistent with Johnson not requesting an extension and also the government acting in accordance with the law is him not being PM and no-one else replacing him in whatever window of time exists between the Act requiring an extension to be requested, and the end of the month. I suppose the regime is plotting some procedural manoeuvres around that, and their opponents are working out what legal challenges might overcome that. I haven't got to grips with the detail, but I assume it's far from straightforward to establish that someone other than the PM can act with the authority of the PM, especially since we've not been in that position before. I know people have said that Bercow or the Cabinet Secretary could be asked to request the extension, but I don't recall seeing anything authoritative setting out why this would be valid. It would certainly be challenged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 16 minutes ago, peterms said: I haven't got to grips with the detail, but I assume it's far from straightforward to establish that someone other than the PM can act with the authority of the PM, especially since we've not been in that position before. Again, this may be where the nob off case comes in - together with para 30 of the Supreme Court judgment from the other week. Perhaps there might be some remedy for a court or Parliament to directly instruct UK Rep (Tim Barrow) should the Prime Minister fail to carry out the reponsibility of the office. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyrusr Posted October 3, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted October 3, 2019 56 minutes ago, peterms said: I can image some potential gaming around timings. This is my biggest problem with politics at the moment. Both sides are guilty of it, but the Tories are by far the worse. Sure, there is always going to be some form of tactic but given the significance of the issue, it is farcical just to try and put pressure so you get what you want. It is not what is right for you, it is what is right for the country. Most, if not all, of the politicians, forget this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted October 3, 2019 Moderator Share Posted October 3, 2019 5 hours ago, blandy said: If he’s not, then somebody else will become pm and will go and ask for the extension. 4 hours ago, ml1dch said: Who? And how? What would be the constitutional procedure for "someone else (to) become pm" if he hasn't formally resigned and recommended a successor? Doesn't matter who the PM is if the Nob Off (its a legal term) case being brought by Jolyon Maugham goes the right way. the Scottish Courts will do it on behalf of the PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, peterms said: We do not have a Deputy PM. Nick Clegg was the last Deputy PM , the closest person to the role at present is Michael Gove , i believe Edited October 3, 2019 by tonyh29 spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted October 3, 2019 Moderator Share Posted October 3, 2019 6 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: , i beleive Nah, it's the Tories, never believe a thing 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 Parody Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted October 3, 2019 Moderator Share Posted October 3, 2019 What are they trying to get off the first page of google searches with Kangaroo testicle? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyrusr Posted October 3, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted October 3, 2019 11 minutes ago, bickster said: What are they trying to get off the first page of google searches with Kangaroo testicle? Something Johnson did whilst in Australia many years ago... I had to double check that it wasn't an actual parody account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 6 hours ago, chrisp65 said: Better a sex pest than a socialist. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhatAboutTheFinish Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 7 hours ago, chrisp65 said: Better a sex pest than a socialist. That’s the title of my third studio album. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said: Very often makes it on to my top ten films list. Classic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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