Eames Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 It does seem like a strange battle to fight given that particularly the English have a reputation for making exactly no effort at cultural integration whatsoever when living or visiting foreign climes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 Yes, how many people cheering on this policy have second homes in Spain or Greece and have never even tried to learn the language? I bet it's in the hundreds of thousands. We're a ridiculously privileged bunch really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 15 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Looks like Camoron's initiative to spend £20 Million on getting 'muslim wives' to speak english or **** off home is already having repercussions. The Spanish government have now said that any english ex pats that can't shout louder and more clearly at the the waiting staff after a year may be sent home. MAY. BE. SENT. HOOOOOME. YES? presumably the source for this was News Thump ? on drive time last night they had some angry Muslim woman who was against this proposal .... her objection seemed to be something like "it's racist " .... during the course of the interview it turned out she agreed in the main with what Cameron had said and that she thought it was a good idea but was still against it to go back to the parody news story though I'm flabbergasted that anyone living in a foreign country wouldn't learn the native language if they were going to live in that country , first thing I did when I moved to Hungary was enrole in a language school ... I still can't speak the bloody language mind you but I can at least order beer and food and tell people to **** off so it's good enough for 95% of daily life there 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 I don't know what News Thump! is (if it's outrageously popular or you've clearly made it up then I concede I've just let myself down, again) Even just going on holiday I'll give myself a crash course in a language so as not to look like the stereotypical brit abroad. Although, I'm already at a cultural advantage there. Recent trips to France and Germany I've tried my best to learn the basics to order food and buy tickets for the zoo etc.. But the buggers insisted on speaking excellent fluent english. Even taxi drivers and beggars in Berlin all appeared to be fluent english speakers. Basic Maltese was my proudest boast. I could swear on Maltese building sites in the foulest Maltese. Turned out very few people understood me. I thought it was down to my accent, turned out it was because they were all Algerian. ----- I don't think anyone can reasonably object to the mission to get people integrated via improved language skills. Threatening to deport people if they don't is hardly a great way of getting mums on 'our' side - which I thought was the point of it. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted January 19, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted January 19, 2016 I don't know what News Thump! is (if it's outrageously popular or you've clearly made it up then I concede I've just let myself down, again) Even just going on holiday I'll give myself a crash course in a language so as not to look like the stereotypical brit abroad. Although, I'm already at a cultural advantage there. Recent trips to France and Germany I've tried my best to learn the basics to order food and buy tickets for the zoo etc.. But the buggers insisted on speaking excellent fluent english. Even taxi drivers and beggars in Berlin all appeared to be fluent english speakers. Basic Maltese was my proudest boast. I could swear on Maltese building sites in the foulest Maltese. Turned out very few people understood me. I thought it was down to my accent, turned out it was because they were all Algerian. ----- I don't think anyone can reasonably object to the mission to get people integrated via improved language skills. Threatening to deport people if they don't is hardly a great way of getting mums on 'our' side - which I thought was the point of it. My attitude to a 'T'. I always have a go, but the locals would often rather speak English - either because they are already fluent in it, or because they want to learn it. My biggest failure was Czech. Biggest success, surprisingly, was Greek. Managed pretty well with Italian. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 33 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Looks like Camoron's initiative to spend £20 Million on getting 'muslim wives' to speak english or **** off home is already having repercussions. The Spanish government have now said that any english ex pats that can't shout louder and more clearly at the the waiting staff after a year may be sent home. MAY. BE. SENT. HOOOOOME. YES? Sadly, this is just the Tories reverting to the language of division and hatred to appeal to the jingoistic 'I might vote UKIP' tendency, which invites the conclusion that Cameron is piece of shit who would skull-f*** his granny if he thought it would get him an extra vote from the right. Why the **** did he bother to get a degree in PPE if he was going to come out with moronic arse-gravy like that, he should have just joined the EDL and learned such slogans from them. A better reason for persuading immigrants to learn English is so they can enjoy the full rights of citizenship and help their children to prosper in a society where knowing English is a prerequisite for success. Threats of deportation should be left to those who dream of cattle-truck solutions to the immigrant 'problem'. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 29 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: I don't know what News Thump! is (if it's outrageously popular or you've clearly made it up then I concede I've just let myself down, again) I don't think anyone can reasonably object to the mission to get people integrated via improved language skills. Threatening to deport people if they don't is hardly a great way of getting mums on 'our' side - which I thought was the point of it. Newsthump is a spoof news page designed to outrage people (usually easy to confuse with a real Daily Mail headline ) I think what Cameron has proposed depends on your political slant tbh , the usual suspects (I.e those that hate the Tories ) have found grounds to criticise it because , well because the tories want to eat our babies and other ridiculous stuff ( if someone acted the same way over Corbyn think of the glee you'd all be having about their stupidity) The outraged Muslim woman on the radio last night agreed that there are a lot of Muslim woman who are ,for want of a better word, oppressed by their husbands and forbidden from learning English (amongst other things ) , I think the "threat" in this policy is to try in it's small way to give these women a chance .... you can argue about the stereotype ,even the racist over tone of that policy and how it's delivered .. I don't think you can argue that learning the native language is a bad idea though (indeed I think we are all in agreement on this bit ?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 13 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: … because the tories want to eat our babies and other ridiculous stuff... Nice that others struggling can be dismissed as 'ridiculous stuff'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post chrisp65 Posted January 19, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted January 19, 2016 Yep, I think we can all agree that people in the UK being able to communicate in English is a good thing. Not sure how it will help a woman that is kept indoors by a medieval retard of a husband. I guess she might one day be able to pick up that phone and ask for help, so it can only do more good than harm. But it was sold in that typical Cameron way, of starting off sounding so reasonable, it was to help us all integrate and thus stop our children going off to Raqqa or killing off duty soldiers. Then, seamlessly, there's a Daily Mail appeasing threat of a threat at the end of it. Failure, might mean you are 'sent home'. Then, after another bit of thinking time, you wonder: exactly how many of the mentally ill and deceived or deluded people that have gone to Syria from here couldn't speak English? How many of them had parents that couldn't speak English that would have spotted a problem and talked them back to sanity had they had English? It's different issues conflated into politicobollix for a chance of a photo op.. Something all sides are equally capable of. It was pure Thick Of It style politics for someone other than non english speaking repressed and abused wives. In a week's time it will be added to the 'long list' of things Cameron has done to 'sort out' immigration. The last census (as rough n ready a guess as any, I guess) suggests that there were 140,00 non english speakers in the UK in 2013. A budget of £20 Million means that we will need to trace these people, explain the new rules, offer them classes or monitoring or coaching of some description, test them and assess them possibly starting expulsion proceedings. At a budget of £140 per head. Right you are. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 4 minutes ago, Xann said: Nice that others struggling can be dismissed as 'ridiculous stuff'. nice that you can put words into other peoples mouths ... Chris appears to have offered a reasoned reply , I'm not really sure that you offered anything if I'm honest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 Step back a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted January 19, 2016 Author Moderator Share Posted January 19, 2016 1 hour ago, tonyh29 said: I'm flabbergasted that anyone living in a foreign country wouldn't learn the native language if they were going to live in that country Indeed. But you're a self reliant, intelligent, well travelled, confident chap. 20 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: It's different issues conflated into politicobollix for a chance of a photo op.. That's it perfectly. The Gov't will do absolutely nothing to "make this happen". it's just so much rather rank smelling hot air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 Quote An academy chain is scrapping the current form of governing bodies for its schools in England. The E-ACT academy group says it will replace them with "academy ambassadorial advisory bodies". These new bodies will "play a central role in celebrating the academy's achievements", E-ACT has told its school governors in a letter. But governing bodies, with parental representatives, will no longer hold their local schools to account. BBC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 51 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Yep, I think we can all agree that people in the UK being able to communicate in English is a good thing. Not sure how it will help a woman that is kept indoors by a medieval retard of a husband. I guess she might one day be able to pick up that phone and ask for help, so it can only do more good than harm. But it was sold in that typical Cameron way, of starting off sounding so reasonable, it was to help us all integrate and thus stop our children going off to Raqqa or killing off duty soldiers. Then, seamlessly, there's a Daily Mail appeasing threat of a threat at the end of it. Failure, might mean you are 'sent home'. Then, after another bit of thinking time, you wonder: exactly how many of the mentally ill and deceived or deluded people that have gone to Syria from here couldn't speak English? How many of them had parents that couldn't speak English that would have spotted a problem and talked them back to sanity had they had English? It's different issues conflated into politicobollix for a chance of a photo op.. Something all sides are equally capable of. It was pure Thick Of It style politics for someone other than non english speaking repressed and abused wives. In a week's time it will be added to the 'long list' of things Cameron has done to 'sort out' immigration. The last census (as rough n ready a guess as any, I guess) suggests that there were 140,00 non english speakers in the UK in 2013. A budget of £20 Million means that we will need to trace these people, explain the new rules, offer them classes or monitoring or coaching of some description, test them and assess them possibly starting expulsion proceedings. At a budget of £140 per head. Right you are. Good post. Helping people who can't speak English to speak English is a Good Thing. Nobody whatsoever disagrees with that, and to the extent that this policy provides money to help people learn English it is also a Good Thing. The problem, as you note, comes with the threat to deport people who haven't made X amount of progress, even if they have in the meantime got married and had children. Speaking as somebody who teaches ESOL professionally, there are some people who just aren't good at learning languages in adulthood. If we're so confident that learning English is helpful (and really, why wouldn't we be, it transparently is) then the carrot of economic and social benefits should be enough to appeal to most of those with the capacity to learn the language. We don't need the shitty stick of family breakup as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 30 minutes ago, Xann said: BBC I'd expect there'll be a lot following suit as the article goes on to quote a spokeswoman for the group: Quote Part of this involves adopting a new governance model, in line with the Department for Education's guidance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 3 hours ago, chrisp65 said: I don't know what News Thump! is (if it's outrageously popular or you've clearly made it up then I concede I've just let myself down, again) talking of Newsthump Parents worried that their children are becoming radicalised and encouraged join the youth wing of the Conservative Party are to get advice from a new website. The website is aimed at keeping children safe from ‘the spell of twisted ideologies’. ‘Preempt the Contempt’ will offer advice to parents and teachers, and will provide guidance drawn up by several charities. Content on the site reveals how some pupils were taught not to mix with children who have ‘lower class’ names, and were fed conspiracy theories about the Scottish 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 Quote Parent Nigel Hague lost his son to Conservative Future’s predecessor, the ‘Young Conservatives’, and spoke of his disappointment that such a resource didn’t exist thirty years ago. He explained, “Our son William was radicalised very young, and soon became the pin-up child for their horrific ideology. We never got him back.” - the warning signs of radicalisation, i.e. wearing chinos and making up statistics now on my faves bar! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted January 19, 2016 Author Moderator Share Posted January 19, 2016 5 hours ago, HanoiVillan said: Good post. Helping people who can't speak English to speak English is a Good Thing. Nobody whatsoever disagrees with that, and to the extent that this policy provides money to help people learn English it is also a Good Thing. The problem, as you note, comes with the threat to deport people who haven't made X amount of progress, even if they have in the meantime got married and had children. Speaking as somebody who teaches ESOL professionally, there are some people who just aren't good at learning languages in adulthood. If we're so confident that learning English is helpful (and really, why wouldn't we be, it transparently is) then the carrot of economic and social benefits should be enough to appeal to most of those with the capacity to learn the language. We don't need the shitty stick of family breakup as well. It's (as you say) a good thing for people living or staying in the UK to speak good English. So why doesn't the Gov't say "speaking English is good. We know there are people who currently can't. We want to help them and future non-English speakers learn. So what we're doing is this...." That's it, isn't it? there's nothing else. Set the scheme up, if it's a good one it'll get results. If it's a bad one, or if it's not funded it won't. After 2 or 3 years see how it's getting on. The if they find that it's made a real difference they can claim (and would deserve) great credit. If it's mix, then maybe dress the problems - both with any training or budget issues and potentially with unco-operative or uninvolved or stay away residents. Punishment should be so far down the learning line that it isn't even mentioned at the start, or before the start. Recalcitrant or unwilling people can and may be persuaded to change their stance if they see friends or others genuinely benefitting from it. Stop with waving a stick around at every mention of Muslims. Tories. knob heads the lot* of 'em. *excludes tiny percentage who are not knob heads. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xela Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 I think if you are coming to the UK to live for a long time and potentially use our infrastructure (benefits, schooling, NHS, etc) then an attempt to learn the language would be beneficial for all parties involved. Its just common sense. If I was to move abroad then the first thing i'd do (once I found a decent local boozer!) would be to enrol in a language class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 And me Think they've approached this completely wrong but I can kind of understand why The answer is that people who come here to live should have some sort of notion to at least try and learn the language, because of the infrastructure reasons xela mentioned, I'd add that it shows that you are at least trying to get a job too and f course it does aid integration However if the Tories list all of those reasons they're at risk of sounding too right wing, no matter how much it sounds like common sense, they also have the issue that they don't insist or control it with Eastern Europeans, so they've linked it to terrorism...which is **** ridiculous Nothing will ever be done about this though, it's pure piss and wind, suggesting people will be deported, not a chance, this country has shown more than once that it can't deport undesirables, deporting a 50 year old Muslim woman because she's lived here for ten years and doesn't speak English? Dave himself couldn't make that happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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