Chindie Posted August 9, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted August 9, 2017 Also, lobbyist. A paid opinion persuader. About the least unbiased viewpoints imaginable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 it's interesting isn't it ... you put up an opinion and get told well your not an expert in that field your opinion isn't valid then someone , who is involved in a particular field , has more experience than 99% of on here offers an opinion and well you can see the results for yourself I don't one persons views can be seen as partisan by another , but maybe the poster need to end every sentence with "I'm not Tory btw" as a caveat , then he'll gain likes instead of derision Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 3 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: it's interesting isn't it ... you put up an opinion and get told well your not an expert in that field your opinion isn't valid then someone , who is involved in a particular field , has more experience than 99% of on here offers an opinion and well you can see the results for yourself I don't think that's a correct representation of how people's opinions are viewed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post chrisp65 Posted August 9, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted August 9, 2017 No, I don’t think I agree with that as a fair resume of the expertise / experience problem here. There will always be ‘experts’ with different opinions and there will always be interested non-experts with alternative views. But for me, the issue here is someone that acts as a lobbyist putting forward one viewpoint as the correct insider knowledge version of the truth. For me, my insight was one of the first exchanges a few months ago. I’ll paraphrase: We were told by a couple of posters there was a problem with the EU putting crazy restrictions in the way of our house builders. I asked what restrictions and never got any sort of reply. We are then told that all the housebuilders want to do is reduce costs for buyers and maximise supply. As someone in that industry, I simply cannot recognise that statement as anywhere near the universal truth. So it’s not a problem with being an expert, or a tory, or a brexiteer. It’s something else. It’s something undefinable around someone claiming inside enhanced knowledge, a paid lobbyist with an end game objective for a client, saying things at odds with what I know to be true. Once that happens on an issue I can relate to, I then doubt their position on farming, or fishing etc.. It’s a similar problem with anecdotes from other posters. How many incompetent lecturers with no ability to recognise crap can one person know! But it doesn’t appear to lead to any self doubt, just a day of silence, then some new anecdotal claim of blinkered bias by others. I sometimes wonder if I’m the only reasonable and balanced contributor on here! 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, chrisp65 said: I sometimes wonder if I’m the only reasonable and balanced contributor on here! you refusal to vote for your good local Tory MP says otherwise 1 hour ago, chrisp65 said: asked what restrictions and never got any sort of reply. I see your point , but equally I've been in threads where I've asked difficult questions and funnily enough nobody replies , focusing instead on your next post where you may have made a grammatical error ..tbf I'm guilty as well , sometimes as I CBA , sometimes as the argument has already been lost , my view is I take no responses as a sign I've won that argument and thus the internet is mine for a fleeting moment and absolutely not the fact that everyone else has got bored and moved on your post and snowys are fair comment ,I was trying to say something but didn't express it particularly well .... I guess it's just I saw something similar with a poster where once it was known he was a Tory councillor he was deemed fair game and for wont of a better word Bullied (it's not the right word but it's close enough ) , I can see the same pattern emerging here ... I accept posters don't help themselves sometimes (who me :) ) , but honestly , look at the hostility levels aimed towards anyone remotely Tory or anti labour ..and notice how those posts always end with "and I'm not Labour " or "and I'm not a Corbyn supporter" as if to show the world their impartiality ..... justified \ warranted or not , the last few responses to that poster have hardly been VT's finest moment Edited August 9, 2017 by tonyh29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted August 9, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted August 9, 2017 Having written a reply more than once ending with 'i'm not a Labour or Corbyn fan', including yesterday, I can only say I do it to fend off the easy 'oh you would say that, you support them' response. I don't subscribe to any party and think the lot are to some degree or another crap. But that doesn't mean you leave nonsense un-countered when, for instance, an ignorant line about the culpability of the financial crisis is trotted out. And certainly I'd expect counters to a viewpoint, espoused as the unflinching truth, and couched in evidence that supports it, if that viewpoint is coming from someone paid to hold it and persuade others to that viewpoint. I'm reminded of the good practice (sometimes law) to advise of 'sponsored' content. A paid for opinion shown as the truth and the whole of the truth is dodgy and should be critiqued and the alternative offered. Unfortunately it comes with the territory. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 I work in IT. I consider myself an expert on most things IT compared to your layperson. If someone asked me how they would kit out their infrastructure I'd plead with them to not let anything Microsoft near it. That's my opinion as an 'expert' in that field. But I know there's other experts who would do everything in Microsoft. Their opinion is just as valid as valid (even if it's wrong ) and we're both experts in the same field. So I'd never profess to tell anyone they're wrong because of my own experience in my field. It's quite conceited and arrogant IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 2 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: you refusal to vote for your good local Tory MP says otherwise He saved the football club by giving us his contacts book. For that he's now rightly honorary life president. He'll be there at Sunday's opening game and he's more than welcome. But yeah, tory scum. Vote 'little Alan' get Fox / Johnson / Gove / May / Redwood / Grayling... On the rest of it, it's nobody's responsibility to back up their claims, but this is a fairly civilised bit of the web despite Limpid's tyrannical regime. It's generally the case that people in the more anorak threads try to post some sort of reference document when they instigate a debate or make a point. Admittedly, there's a lot of 'it must be true, it was in the Daily Mirror' about some of the referencing, but yeah if someone makes a claim, gets challenged and chooses to ignore repeat requests for info., well I guess we can draw our own conclusions. I enjoy it though. I hope people don't get put off when ten lefties pile on. Without a bit of a counter viewpoint the thread would die on it's arse really. Suffice to say, if Labour were actually in power, I would be far more critical of them. Right now, I'm happy to ignore a small number of admin issues in Venezuela not being condemned by Corbyn as that's the lesser of two evils when compared with this perpetual 'austerity' lie. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 2 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: it's arse *its We have to keep some decorum here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 3 minutes ago, darrenm said: *its We have to keep some decorum here. your name will also go on the list 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, tonyh29 said: I guess it's just I saw something similar with a poster where once it was known he was a Tory councillor he was deemed fair game and for wont of a better word Bullied (it's not the right word but it's close enough ) I'm sorry, Tony, but that is rubbish. Edited August 9, 2017 by snowychap for consistency Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 3 minutes ago, Chindie said: Having written a reply more than once ending with 'i'm not a Labour or Corbyn fan', including yesterday, I can only say I do it to fend off the easy 'oh you would say that, you support them' response. I don't subscribe to any party and think the lot are to some degree or another crap. But that doesn't mean you leave nonsense un-countered when, for instance, an ignorant line about the culpability of the financial crisis is trotted out. And certainly I'd expect counters to a viewpoint, espoused as the unflinching truth, and couched in evidence that supports it, if that viewpoint is coming from someone paid to hold it and persuade others to that viewpoint. I'm reminded of the good practice (sometimes law) to advise of 'sponsored' content. A paid for opinion shown as the truth and the whole of the truth is dodgy and should be critiqued and the alternative offered. Unfortunately it comes with the territory. I think its far to say we know peoples allegiances ..... I can read your posts and know that it's coming more from an anti Tory pov rather than an endorsement of another party / politician , much the same way my posts are almost always going to be from an anti left pov agreed , counter an ignorant line , but that isn't really what's happening in the last few pages is it ... ... I know people like the political debate on here rather than my irreverent contributions , Darren gave me a nice breakdown of my post yesterday as to why he believed I was wrong , needless to say I didn't agree , but it was a positive reply that I was inclined to read and reply to without malice or anger ..or even mischief .. and surely that helps the debate for those that enjoy it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 7 minutes ago, snowychap said: I'm sorry, Tony, but that is rubbish. I personally didn't agree with it I guess is the safest way to put it , I know we've had this discussion offline before so I also respect your viewpoint on this , and tbf it's probably one to carry on offline if we want to discuss it further Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 (edited) 47 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: I personally didn't agree with it I guess is the safest way to put it , I know we've had this discussion offline before so I also respect your viewpoint on this , and tbf it's probably one to carry on offline if we want to discuss it further It wasn't a safe way to put it at all, though. Yes, we have had this discussion by PM and we don't agree and, tbh, that's fine - we see it differently but that's how life works so I don't have an issue with that. Edited: on further thought, I doubt you meant it how I read it and, as you say, it's not an appropriate direction to take the thread. Edited August 9, 2017 by snowychap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 Could this all be resolved by changing the word 'bullied' for 'sectioned'? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 3 hours ago, tonyh29 said: I guess it's just I saw something similar with a poster where once it was known he was a Tory councillor he was deemed fair game and for wont of a better word Bullied (it's not the right word but it's close enough ) , I can see the same pattern emerging here ... Tony assuming you are on about Dicky then I have never once gotten the impression he was being bullied and could more than hold his own in any disagreement. As for the way this thread has gone over the last few days then again I don't see that a certain poster is being picked on. He is putting up opinions that many don't agree with and is therefore being called out on them. No different to any other thread on VT. If I was to go into the Kodjia thread now and say I think we should sell him I would be jumped on by most posters but I wouldn't see that as me being bullied. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 25 minutes ago, markavfc40 said: Tony assuming you are on about Dicky then I have never once gotten the impression he was being bullied and could more than hold his own in any disagreement. As for the way this thread has gone over the last few days then again I don't see that a certain poster is being picked on. He is putting up opinions that many don't agree with and is therefore being called out on them. No different to any other thread on VT. If I was to go into the Kodjia thread now and say I think we should sell him I would be jumped on by most posters but I wouldn't see that as me being bullied. I do think Tony has a fair point in what he's trying to say. If someone keeps getting shut down by a love pile of lefties every time they make an argument edging on something that isn't Corbyn-esque they are bound to stop at some point. The forum will be boring and these threads will die. Jonathan Pie said it well really - big portions of the left have disconnected and gone to really low ways of debating rather than engaging in policy discussion. The end result of a debate with many lefties is generally "well Labour isn't in power so it doesn't really matter anyway" or "I would be hyper critical of Labour were they in power". So in the end you are arguing against someone who at the end of the day argues just for the sake of arguing. How do you form a coherent opposition if being in opposition doesn't really matter? It beats me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 9 minutes ago, magnkarl said: I do think Tony has a fair point in what he's trying to say. If someone keeps getting shut down by a love pile of lefties every time they make an argument edging on something that isn't Corbyn-esque they are bound to stop at some point. The forum will be boring and these threads will die. Jonathan Pie said it well really - big portions of the left have disconnected and gone to really low ways of debating rather than engaging in policy discussion. The end result of a debate with many lefties is generally "well Labour isn't in power so it doesn't really matter anyway" or "I would be hyper critical of Labour were they in power". So in the end you are arguing against someone who at the end of the day argues just for the sake of arguing. So your solution is mass-generalisations and belittling others? Sounds like a real good way of producing debate and trying to keep the forum alive. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 (edited) 16 minutes ago, magnkarl said: I do think Tony has a fair point in what he's trying to say. If someone keeps getting shut down by a love pile of lefties every time they make an argument edging on something that isn't Corbyn-esque they are bound to stop at some point............. I am struggling to grasp exactly what you are getting at here but it is called debate isn't it? if you post something that some people don't agree with then they are entitled to post a counter argument or call them out on the points they disagree with. Surely none of us should have an issue with that and if we do we probably need to stop posting our views. Now if the issue is with the fact that you think that too many on here are anti Tory/pro left then if you are pro Tory/anti left then I guess you might feel a little isolated and like you are battling the masses. That isn't the fault of those with an opposing political leaning to yourself though and they shouldn't be called bullies just because you feel they are in the majority. Edited August 9, 2017 by markavfc40 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 (edited) 32 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: So your solution is mass-generalisations and belittling others? Sounds like a real good way of producing debate and trying to keep the forum alive. Where did I mass generalise? I simply quoted something one of the left's favorite satirists have said multiple times. Go back in this thread or in the labour thread and you would see a lot of hard core labour voters escape with the argument "well, the manifesto, the policy discussed etc doesn't really matter because labour aren't in power anyway". Debate is good. Debating from all angles with the idea that whoever you are backing are blameless because they can't affect anything anyway isn't debate in my book. The few tory voters on here do get a whole load of sly remarks thrown at them, that is why this was brought up. If you think that is me belittling people then I'm sorry. People don't raise such things without reason. It's been 8 years since labour were in power. Before those 8 years they brought our country into just as much mess as we are currently in. I'm not a fan of either party to be honest as I think in general it's turned into a shit-slinging contest rather than a discussion on policy. I haven't seen a single debate since Cameron vs Brown in 2010, all I've seen is quibbles over ties, shots below the belt and scare tactics. Labour are just as much as fault for that as the tories are as they constitute the majority of the opposition. If I wanted to generalise I could say that all labour supporters answer any critisism written on paper with "it's murdoch, the press is ruining the left!". If anything I think a lot of people on the left find it comforting to have that boogeyman they can blame whenever things don't go their way. There's always Daily Mail brainwashing the minds of millions of hard blue, hard leave, fox hunters from the home counties that obviously are a huge problem to labour, right? Edited August 9, 2017 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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