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The banker loving, baby-eating Tory party thread (regenerated)

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4 minutes ago, itdoesntmatterwhatthissay said:

that brings me onto the EU and why THEY NEED A PAUSE, not us! They have 28 member states to look after (or two as my work college says, Germany and France) and they have been losing their confidence one by one. Also if you remember they were the ones pushing for us to enact article 50 so we can get all this started! So were Labour, the media, the general population, almost everyone! The EU know they’re in a much more powerful position than us, at the moment, but they need reform much more than we need the EU to survive.

I agree the EU needs reform, I agree the EU is in a much stronger position than the UK, but as for them needing reform more than we need the EU, no, I don't see that.  I really also don't get why the EU would need to ask for a pause, or why for the EU that would be good policy.

We know that the EU is well prepared for the proceess and negotiations. We know that the EU has a set of detailed position papers, a set of trained, expert negotiators, we know that it has a set of conditions and demands and a framework set for the negotiations.

We know that the UK is badly prepared for the process and negotiations, we know that memebrs of the GOvernment and Cabinet have completely differing views on what the UK position should be, and that therefore the UK does not have a clear position on what the UK wants from the process, or what outcome is being sought. We know that the UK Gov't has been caught by surprise by some of the impacts of leaving the ECJ, for example. We know that we do not have sufficient trained, expert negotiators, we know that people involved on our side have said how unprepared we are for the negotiations, we know that there have been a sequence of resignations of UK people involved and failures to attract top people to join our team.

We know that in the UK the feelings about Brexit have shifted in the direction of " we should stay in" rather than "leave" and we know that across the EU the feelings towards the EU in the wake of the Brexit vote have been much more favourable than up to that point. We know that since the vote to leave, the UK has dropped from doing best out of the EU nations, to doing just about the worst, economically.

We know that while some planned events have carried on unaffected, many others have not, we know that businesses are planning to move abroad, set up operations abroad in order to be able to continue to trade in the EU single market.

These are all facts, and they're al lrelated, or most of them to the sheer incompetence of the Tory gov't..

 

 

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40 minutes ago, bickster said:

1) Go on, amuse us, that's a line right out of the Gove handbook, it even has his trademark lack of substantiation. I'm presuming you have an invite for the Platitude Festival next summer.

2) Another one out of the Brexiteers handbook. I can think of at least 48% of the population that didn't think that

Hopefully, now that my ever present Glasto is not on. I do enjoy getting a chance to speak to people even when they disagree.

1. Amuse you? Sigh. I have been amusing you for two years on this topic, if you've learnt absolutely nothing from anything I have written then yes, Britain under an ignorant EU suits you and this country perfectly!
I've mentioned farming, fishing, automotive such as LDV/Rover,  high tech design, construction, automotive, environmental, tourism and population power among others. So many of our industries are underdeveloped because of one reason or another, and yes the EU is one of them. But it's also not! Which is why clearly we have to leave the EU because people aren't willing to really comprehend the problems we DO face under the EU...or the problems the EU causes to its own members or others!

I have been constantly realistic about the difficulties of leaving but I'm not willing to be ignorant about the potential. You might be so anti-leave that you're small minded enough to shove me in a boat with Gove but I won't assume you're Cable, the old man with the old man's opinion....despite the obvious similarities! 

2. Nope. I always felt we should make them wait and wait, It was our prerogative. I was tired of hearing, reading, seeing people ask for article 50 to begin because we weren't ready for the referendum let alone negotiations. 
But wow, what an ignorant comment. You think it's 48%? Because many remainers were desperate to just get on with Brexit, it was the remoaners who have put up the walls....and they don't amount to 48%...straight out of the Brexiteers handbook? Nope, straight out of the remoaners one!

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It's utterly pathetic that over a year later, people are still using the term 'remoaners'.

 

Edited by StefanAVFC
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53 minutes ago, blandy said:

I agree the EU needs reform, I agree the EU is in a much stronger position than the UK, but as for them needing reform more than we need the EU, no, I don't see that.  I really also don't get why the EU would need to ask for a pause, or why for the EU that would be good policy.

We know that the EU is well prepared for the proceess and negotiations. We know that the EU has a set of detailed position papers, a set of trained, expert negotiators, we know that it has a set of conditions and demands and a framework set for the negotiations.

We know that the UK is badly prepared for the process and negotiations, we know that memebrs of the GOvernment and Cabinet have completely differing views on what the UK position should be, and that therefore the UK does not have a clear position on what the UK wants from the process, or what outcome is being sought. We know that the UK Gov't has been caught by surprise by some of the impacts of leaving the ECJ, for example. We know that we do not have sufficient trained, expert negotiators, we know that people involved on our side have said how unprepared we are for the negotiations, we know that there have been a sequence of resignations of UK people involved and failures to attract top people to join our team.

We know that in the UK the feelings about Brexit have shifted in the direction of " we should stay in" rather than "leave" and we know that across the EU the feelings towards the EU in the wake of the Brexit vote have been much more favourable than up to that point. We know that since the vote to leave, the UK has dropped from doing best out of the EU nations, to doing just about the worst, economically.

We know that while some planned events have carried on unaffected, many others have not, we know that businesses are planning to move abroad, set up operations abroad in order to be able to continue to trade in the EU single market.

These are all facts, and they're al lrelated, or most of them to the sheer incompetence of the Tory gov't..

The ECJ thing, hopefully not Euroatom as that's a terrible example? And while I agree public opinion may have shifted, if it was less 'doom and gloom' and more 'wow we're amazing' things would be v different again. And please, stop being so small minded and blaming the Tories. Both before and after this referendum, Labour have been despicable and spent all their time playing politics, including silencing their leader. In fact I am sad to say a party I campaigned over a decade for, the Lib Dems, have been as unhelpful to the process.
But well done Labour for stealing many of their votes and momentum with their EU remain misinformation. New kind of Politics baby! 

Let's assume everything you say is true? Why not rethink both sides failures? Under the EU we have lost 85% of our small milk producers. The SME construction industry has shrunk to levels never seen in this country. Overnight we saw prices double for more than 50% of EU countries. Africa has become a a tool for EU prosperity at the cost of Africans, the real poor. New farmers have been kept out of the game. Internal investment of very many kinds is stopped because it's protectionist, despite the EU protecting from outside influence. Millions and millions of people find life unaffordable, particularly in housing. Individual countries in X,Y and Z have been asked to take the strain, eg - Italy and immigration. Energy policy has moved away from innovative producers to the big few. And then a survey telling us how happy everyone in the EU is justifies them continuing unabated. 

In 10 years time our evolution remains in our hands; without reform and in 10 years time, 27 member states will see theirs in the hands of people who don't know them, who don't care for them and who don't give a hoot about the granular impact of their policies. 
These are all facts, and they're all related, or most of them to the sheer incompetence of the EU.

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58 minutes ago, blandy said:

We know that since the vote to leave, the UK has dropped from doing best out of the EU nations, to doing just about the worst, economically

and Romania has outperformed all of Europe but without any explanation it's hard to say why or read a lot into the stat .... in isolation it could paint a picture to support a "yikes we are doomed "  view but  one factor could be that the risk of  deflation in the Eurozone  has been abated  , hence their economies are reacting strongly ?

UK GDP was still 2% bigger in the first quarter of 2017 than a year earlier ... and looking at some data in 2015 and 2016 (and now 2017) the EU outperformed the UK in Q1 growth , followed by the UK outperforming the EU in Q2, Q3 and Q4  ...(Q3 2015 was about parity tbf)  ok 3 years isn't much to go on but it suggests a recent pattern of sorts  so maybe we need to see the Q2 data for a bigger picture ?

 

 

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10 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

It's utterly pathetic that over a year later, people are still using the term 'remoaners'.

 

It's utterly pathetic that labels are thrown around as easily as they are but heck, if you throw one at me and offer an illogical comment then if the cap fits,  expect one back.

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25 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

It's utterly pathetic that over a year later, people are still using the term 'remoaners'.

You expect what from pig shit thick Brexit?

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Brexit will be great but only if we really, really believe it will be.

Policy by Tinkerbell effect.

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1 minute ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

Brexit is very obviously going to cause a lot of economic problems for a long time. 

STOP PUTTING BRITAIN DOWN!

;)

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37 minutes ago, Chindie said:

Brexit will be great but only if we really, really believe it will be.

Policy by Tinkerbell effect.

EU is the answer to all our problems, but only if you ignore a whole group of peoples opinions.

One way ticket to  Venezuela? 

Edited by itdoesntmatterwhatthissay
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1 hour ago, itdoesntmatterwhatthissay said:

please, stop being so small minded and blaming the Tories.

This is the Tory thread! And as you said (as did I) they're the muppets who triggered the A50 thing when they really shouldn't have done, when it was our best negotiating ploy to hold off, when the Gov't was ill prepared.

1 hour ago, itdoesntmatterwhatthissay said:

Labour have been despicable and spent all their time playing politics, including silencing their leader.

True, no argument from me there.

1 hour ago, itdoesntmatterwhatthissay said:

Let's assume everything you say is true? Why not rethink both sides failures? Under the EU we have lost 85% of our small milk producers. The SME construction industry has shrunk to levels never seen in this country. Overnight we saw prices double for more than 50% of EU countries. Africa has become a a tool for EU prosperity at the cost of Africans, the real poor. New farmers have been kept out of the game. Internal investment of very many kinds is stopped because it's protectionist, despite the EU protecting from outside influence. Millions and millions of people find life unaffordable, particularly in housing. Individual countries in X,Y and Z have been asked to take the strain, eg - Italy and immigration. Energy policy has moved away from innovative producers to the big few. And then a survey telling us how happy everyone in the EU is justifies them continuing unabated. 

In 10 years time our evolution remains in our hands; without reform and in 10 years time, 27 member states will see theirs in the hands of people who don't know them, who don't care for them and who don't give a hoot about the granular impact of their policies. 
These are all facts, and they're all related, or most of them to the sheer incompetence of the EU.

Rethinking the failures, and the reasons for them is a damned good idea.

Looking at your example - milk and SME builders. Are you telling me that the problems there are with the EU, because I don't think they are. I think Milk producers have been rodgered by the Supermarkets and let down by the Milk board (or whatever it's called). Supermarket power in terms of purchasing and their power over producers is a major factor for farmers struggling, particularly small farmers. It's nothing to do with the EU, but all to do with consecutive UK Gov'ts kowtowing to unregulated free market economics  - giving power to big business because big business donates to them.

Construction relies on forward planning, on Government infrastructure investment and on an economy in a good state. The global recession and then in particular Osborne's steps to cut back Gov't spending, the approach he took to the banks and lending and reserves killed lending to small business investment and helming back the economy and builders (and other SMEs) - again, not caused by the EU.

Internal investment is not (mostly) stopped because it's protectionist, it's prevented because of Gov't actions. There is nothing to stop the Gov't deciding to invest in whatever it likes - Power stations (e.g. Hinkley) Roads, Cross-rail, HS2 - it's all about choices they've made. They've tended to favour big projects, with overseas finance and providers - EDF, Chinese money, American Planes, German Rail...etc.

There are some big flaws with the EU, and leaving could (theoretically) be not massively painful, if done right, but tbh our Gov't is doing everything wrong, unsurprisingly, because they're a bunch of incompetent eftards, by and large.

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1 hour ago, tonyh29 said:

Romania has outperformed all of Europe but without any explanation it's hard to say why or read a lot into the stat .... in isolation it could paint a picture to support a "yikes we are doomed "  view but  one factor could be that the risk of  deflation in the Eurozone  has been abated  , hence their economies are reacting strongly ?

UK GDP was still 2% bigger in the first quarter of 2017 than a year earlier ... and looking at some data in 2015 and 2016 (and now 2017) the EU outperformed the UK in Q1 growth , followed by the UK outperforming the EU in Q2, Q3 and Q4  ...(Q3 2015 was about parity tbf)  ok 3 years isn't much to go on but it suggests a recent pattern of sorts  so maybe we need to see the Q2 data for a bigger picture ?

I think that what it shows is as you say, unclear - that there are various factors at play. The difficulty I have is that it's long been said that Europe is "failing" economically and it's dying...etc. and we should leave. Yet it's not, it's currently (for whatever reasons) doing fine thank you, and that since the vote the UK is doing worse than before, though many of the impacts have yet to kick in, enough have to drag us backwards, relatively.

But we can look at business uncertainty as to what the effects of leaving will have on them, whether they should hold off investing or carry on with their plans. Whether the cost of imported raw materials, which has risen will put up their prices at a time when people's wages are held back and pay rises are below inflation...

We know business is pleading with the Gov't to make Brexit as soft as possible, because of the problems they'll have with getting Labour and skilled people...etc.

 

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4 minutes ago, blandy said:

This is the Tory thread! And as you said (as did I) they're the muppets who triggered the A50 thing when they really shouldn't have done, when it was our best negotiating ploy to hold off, when the Gov't was ill prepared.

Looking at your example - milk and SME builders. Are you telling me that the problems there are with the EU, because I don't think they are. I think Milk producers have been rodgered by the Supermarkets and let down by the Milk board (or whatever it's called). Supermarket power in terms of purchasing and their power over producers is a major factor for farmers struggling, particularly small farmers. It's nothing to do with the EU, but all to do with consecutive UK Gov'ts kowtowing to unregulated free market economics  - giving power to big business because big business donates to them.

Construction relies on forward planning, on Government infrastructure investment and on an economy in a good state. The global recession and then in particular Osborne's steps to cut back Gov't spending, the approach he took to the banks and lending and reserves killed lending to small business investment and helming back the economy and builders (and other SMEs) - again, not caused by the EU.

Internal investment is not (mostly) stopped because it's protectionist, it's prevented because of Gov't actions. There is nothing to stop the Gov't deciding to invest in whatever it likes - Power stations (e.g. Hinkley) Roads, Cross-rail, HS2 - it's all about choices they've made. They've tended to favour big projects, with overseas finance and providers - EDF, Chinese money, American Planes, German Rail...etc.

There are some big flaws with the EU, and leaving could (theoretically) be not massively painful, if done right, but tbh our Gov't is doing everything wrong, unsurprisingly, because they're a bunch of incompetent eftards, by and large.

It's a Tory thread, not a bash a Tory thread.......

The milk stats are not from this country but from the entire EU. We've done a little better than the rest of the EU but in the poorest countries those farm jobs have devastated communities. And actually CAP inhibits new entrants. Food banks existed well before Osborne and I know because I used to deliver food to them, but what's changed? There are more for sure but also they are more united not, in part because of the internet but also because it's a good way to focus on Conservative failure....not failure, either previous or locally.....eg, house prices ARE a local government issue more than central! 
I am baffled at how little actual farmers and fishermans opinions are listened to, they lived through the change, they didn't research it with tinted glasses as so many 'experts' do!

Construction actually relies on people being able to win work. if procurement on everything - from toiler paper to leisure centres  -favours big companies who sub-contract, how good is that for the local economy? Do you get a transient workforce? Are you getting value for money? We have section 106 agreements to keep jobs local (not careers), UK policy, but EU regs, EU and some WTO agreed thresholds (not who can access the work), mean its big companies again who win the work. SMEs used to build the majority of projects in the UK.
Of course we could do more but you'd need every local authority and every party to change their mind on procurement and they don't even recognise it's a problem. In fact in my experience the only people who know anything about it are the Conservatives, when I meet them they know, Labour don't and the trade unions are even worse. There's no appetite for change or realism!

Also not completely true about internal investment. We could do more as Slovakia has shown and we've wasted those opportunities but at least you know that! Few do! But I don't think you realise how powerful the ECJ has been, for example, because I've explained it fully, with the Green Deal.

Why did we not invest in LDV/Rover like we did with British Leyland....we couldn't, because of EU competition law. What a waste!
The same happened with our great automotive trades in after sales components. We lost loads of businesses because government couldn't invest, after a while they were asset stripped by foreign investors....do I blame Labour? I did at the time until I learnt they had their hands tied. Then I blamed them for doing nothing about it in the years after, like Cameron in his 'negotiations'. 

I should have said renewable powerstations. The EU used to fund a variation of renewable energy projects,19 I think, but they've chosen to now only support 3 major companies. That's the EU solving the EU's renewable energy infrastructure. Absolutely nothing to do with the UK! But everything to do with a failed decision. In fact a British win company was looking for investment from the UK govt, we couldnt do it but a wealthy Dutch private company could.

There are also some issues with the EU mortgage directive making lending very difficult on more expensive properties. It's not as simple as you make it seem or present. It's complicated and that's because it's a one cap model that never fit all when we were less than 10, let alone 28.

I agree with the last comment, it's been an agonisingly head shaking 7 years that followed a heart shattering 9.

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22 minutes ago, itdoesntmatterwhatthissay said:

It's a Tory thread, not a bash a Tory thread.......

 

Erm. That's not how these threads work. 

Edited by Seat68
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19 minutes ago, itdoesntmatterwhatthissay said:

It's a Tory thread, not a bash a Tory thread.......

 

1

When did we ever have a be nice to the Tories topic with a separate topic for bashing them?

That wouldn't really be a debate would it

Also telling the bloke that started the topic all those years ago that this isn't the intention of the topic is a bit well.. silly

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30 minutes ago, bickster said:

milk is the new fish

It's been added to fish. Fish is still the new fish. Despite the dozens of articles to the contrary. Perhaps opinions saying the EU isn't all that bad aren't lucrative.

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1 hour ago, bickster said:

Also telling the bloke that started the topic all those years ago that this isn't the intention of the topic is a bit well.. silly

If only the topic you started still existed , this one appears to have been started by Blandy for some unknown reason :P

 

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11 hours ago, tonyh29 said:

If only the topic you started still existed , this one appears to have been started by Blandy for some unknown reason :P

 

It was blandy he was replying to, hence the comment, do keep up :D

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