itdoesntmatterwhatthissay Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 On 02/08/2017 at 06:40, bickster said: Reversing the decision of the almost meaningless referendum. Hold another referendum now and the result would be reversed, no question in my mind about that. Which is the correct snapshot of public opinion? Referendums are particularly stupid tools on which to make such important decisions. Close results lead to zero mandate for anything. Completely **** the country up on something I'm fairly sure the majority of the country country no longer wants (and probably never would have, had they not been lied to) is the behaviour of a lemming running off a cliff. This lot couldn't negotiate their way out of a paper bag let alone something this complex and with both hands tied behind their back at the same time. Cornwall voted to leave, they asked for their £600mil of whatever it was they received from the EU annually, which they were promised by the likes of Gove and Boris, reality has hit home, they won't be getting a quarter of that and the longer this farce goes on, the more sectors of society that voted to leave will realise they've been totally dicked over. Trouble is, the nonsense needs stopping now, not in another years time. All very good points, apart from the highlighted one. You don't know how the next 20 years are going to play out let alone the next 12 months. The EU is broken for very many people, it's already been effing up peoples lives for a little while now. Also certain 'leave' voters are and may be absolutely delighted. The majority of remain hasn't given;for example, fishermen, the time of day. Or have I been lied to and they have been working hard for the last 20 years to help them? Obviously that was rhetorical. Remain only care about remaining, not the problems with the EU. Even now! And yes, some people who didn't do the research were lied to. As they were and are by every political party on a weekly basis. But denial is a strong emotion and on that note I'm off to see how the Labour members of this forum are reacting to Venezuelan/Labour party links! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 6 hours ago, itdoesntmatterwhatthissay said: The majority of remain hasn't given;for example, fishermen, the time of day. Lets see what the Leave side are saying about fishing less than a month ago.. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40471466 Quote 7th July 2017 The government is to end an arrangement that allows other countries to fish in UK waters, it has been announced. The convention allows Irish, Dutch, French, German and Belgian vessels to fish within six and 12 nautical miles of UK coastline. Environment Secretary Michael Gove said the move would help take back control of fishing access to UK waters. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-40814377 Quote Michael Gove has confirmed that some foreign trawlers will still have access to UK waters after Brexit. Mr Gove, the UK environment secretary, said British fishermen would not have the capacity to land all of the fish in British territorial waters. And he said that some access would therefore be granted to vessels from other countries. Mr Wichmann also said that the Danes were seeking a deal that would effectively mean "business as usual" with regard to access to UK fisheries after Brexit. Mr Gove's remarks in Denmark follow an appearance on the BBC's Andrew Marr show last month, when he said no foreign boats would be allowed to fish within six to 12 miles of the UK coast. But he said the UK would become an "independent coastal state" after leaving the EU, which would allow it to extend control of its waters up to 200 miles from its coastline. Mr Gove said this would allow the UK to "take control" of its waters, and then negotiate with other countries to allow them access to British fisheries. Ahh righto. You'd think being flatly lied to time after time would make some people sit up and start to take notice, but some seem to be too busy not caring about economic ruin and their family losing their jobs 6 hours ago, itdoesntmatterwhatthissay said: Remain only care about remaining, not the problems with the EU. Even now! Wrong. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted August 3, 2017 Moderator Share Posted August 3, 2017 6 hours ago, itdoesntmatterwhatthissay said: All very good points, apart from the highlighted one. You don't know how the next 20 years are going to play out let alone the next 12 months. The EU is broken for very many people, it's already been effing up peoples lives for a little while now. Also certain 'leave' voters are and may be absolutely delighted. The majority of remain hasn't given;for example, fishermen, the time of day. Or have I been lied to and they have been working hard for the last 20 years to help them? Obviously that was rhetorical. Remain only care about remaining, not the problems with the EU. Even now! And yes, some people who didn't do the research were lied to. As they were and are by every political party on a weekly basis. But denial is a strong emotion and on that note I'm off to see how the Labour members of this forum are reacting to Venezuelan/Labour party links! The next 12 months is pretty easy to predict. The next 20 years isn't that unfathomable either. Are you old enough to remember what a mess this country was in around the time we entered the EEC as it was then? Country was on its arse. 3 day week, power cuts, blah blah. Back then we even made stuff. Thatcher turned us into a service economy and what service economy can survive when it's biggest market will impose tariffs, there isn't a tangible good that can have added value because it's British as the Torys seem to think. The talent, the British talent will leave the country because our companies will relocate outside the country, they have too, its logical. The London Stock Exchange will be decimated as the French attempt to steal that business off us and rejoining later on won't get that or any of the European agencies based here back on rejoining at a later date. we'll become the low paid capital of Europe, that's actually what the Tories appear to be heading towards, its suits them and their friends / sponsors well, trouble is that's not most of us 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itdoesntmatterwhatthissay Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 2 hours ago, StefanAVFC said: Lets see what the Leave side are saying about fishing less than a month ago.. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40471466 http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-40814377 Ahh righto. You'd think being flatly lied to time after time would make some people sit up and start to take notice, but some seem to be too busy not caring about economic ruin and their family losing their jobs Wrong. What you're doing there is confusing reporting with policy. It's the quotas that's a major problem, thank god the report identified that. Better than REMAIN, which is what I said! Why bring up leave? My beef as it always had been is with the complete inaction from 'remain' to progress any conversation that obstructs their POV. It's ridiculous and I would throw the same accusation at leave, but with less ferocity. Look at Corbyns contribution to the referendum, a man who spent some of his backbench time criticising EU failures, who was then silenced. Strange how neither article mentioned conservation, but heck, why discuss that when we have Brexit failure to focus on. If it fails then it's a failure, but we've not even left and Britain is sunk. Righto indeed! If not the EU than the political parties, but nobody has delivered sustainable prosperity that has lasted until today. In fact, the many issues the EU ignores has been biting them on the behind for a decade now, but heck, rose tinted specs it is! Modern life, technology and communication has created far more opportunity than any club membership. The EU may have helped, for sure, it's created a market that proves products/services viable, but that's what I keep saying about the Green Deal in this country, a failed approach to solving our energy potential because of decades of EU shortsightedness. Wrong? How so? Show me a comprehensive ,progressive approach from the Remain camp that looks at policy conflicts and explores the realities of both staying and leaving? Show me one from anyone! It's still not happening! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted August 3, 2017 Author Moderator Share Posted August 3, 2017 30 minutes ago, itdoesntmatterwhatthissay said: Show me a comprehensive ,progressive approach from the Remain camp that looks at policy conflicts and explores the realities of both staying and leaving? Show me one from anyone! It's still not happening! There's absolutely loads of it. It may not be immediately apparent, in part because stuff keeps getting "realised" by the leave people. some recent examples include consequences of leaving and (for various reasons, some of which initially make sense) wishing to leave the jurisdiction of the ECJ. We've also handed in notice to leave Euratom, because of the ECJ angle. Quote As part of Britain’s exit from the European Union, British Prime Minister Theresa May has committed to removing the United Kingdom from the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice (ECJ). The issue has marked a crucial redline in ongoing Brexit negotiations, dividing those who take an absolutist approach to the manner of the country’s exit from those seeking more flexibility. But the Prime Minister has been unequivocal. In her own words: “The authority of EU law in Britain will end.” May’s stance has been poorly received across the United Kingdom’s increasingly fragmented political landscape. This is partly because the UK also intends to back out of Euratom, a European institution that provides the legal backstop to civilian nuclear activities in the UK. The reason: Euratom relies on the ECJ. A parliamentary Select Committee called the decision to leave Euratom an “unfortunate, and perhaps unforeseen, consequence” of leaving the ECJ. Former ministerial advisor James Chapman has been publicly damning of May’s position, stating that “if she doesn’t shift on Euratom ... parliament will shift it for her.” Even Dominic Cummings, Brexit doyen and former ministerial advisor, has colorfully called for the UK to stick with Euratom. A cross-party group of senior Members of Parliament (MPs) voiced their concerns, threatening to derail Brexit legislation that depends on a small parliamentary majority. The government’s plans have been rapidly thrown into disarray. So what is Euratom, why is it important, and what does it have to do with Brexit?... [more on link] Similar problems apply to Aviation and a host of other industries with international aspects. The policy conflicts you mention are almost invisible because there's a pretty seamless, free flow of data, regulation, travel, ideas, funding, standards etc. as it is now, but that'll all stop when we leave. It's a proper cliff edge. Many times over. A gazillion "unforeseen" consequences, because the people who want out haven't ever considered them, and the people who wanted in didn't ever think we'd leave. The progressive thing is to remain, the idiotic thing is to leave - the consequences are huge. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted August 3, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted August 3, 2017 Leave is basically the stupid option. Potentially good for the lobbying industry though. Think of the regulations! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 i wonder if we'll get Fukushima fish to go with our chlorinated chicken from the Yanks? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 I'm the police liaison for my company. This just landed in my inbox. Quote Dear Ward Member, As a result of Government funding cuts, since 2010, the Met Police have had to find £600m of savings and must save a further £400m by 2020. Mayor Sadiq Khan is determined to protect the front line from cuts, and he has published draft plans to: close costly and underused police front counters in London and provide better ways to contact the Met online. Doing this would help to meet growing public demand to be able to access Met Police services from smartphones, tablets and computers, whilst saving £10million that could be spent instead on frontline policing. Share your views on accessing Met Police services www.london.gov.uk/public-access https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/public_acess_strategy.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 They can't help showing their true colours can they? After the n*gger in the pile, they now decide to tweet this That's a hate crime and hopefully someone's made a police complaint. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itdoesntmatterwhatthissay Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 On 03/08/2017 at 18:43, blandy said: There's absolutely loads of it. It may not be immediately apparent, in part because stuff keeps getting "realised" by the leave people. some recent examples include consequences of leaving and (for various reasons, some of which initially make sense) wishing to leave the jurisdiction of the ECJ. We've also handed in notice to leave Euratom, because of the ECJ angle. Similar problems apply to Aviation and a host of other industries with international aspects. The policy conflicts you mention are almost invisible because there's a pretty seamless, free flow of data, regulation, travel, ideas, funding, standards etc. as it is now, but that'll all stop when we leave. It's a proper cliff edge. Many times over. A gazillion "unforeseen" consequences, because the people who want out haven't ever considered them, and the people who wanted in didn't ever think we'd leave. The progressive thing is to remain, the idiotic thing is to leave - the consequences are huge. It is getting realised by all people! Some Leave guys discussed Euratom before the election but nobody picked it up, and remain certainly didn't campaign on it. Is there a solution? Well so far from what I gathered pre-election was that the ECJ would just have jurisdiction over nuclear energy..no biggie, surely? Don't we have to hand in notice if leaving the EU but can still join after? Similar problems for sure but that's the point about leaving, sorting them out over time, hence a transitional period. It is a cliff edge and remaining will no doubt be easier (and I'd be very fine with that) but you're completely incorrect, the progressive thing here is for the EU to come back to the table, ask for a pause, and try and hammer out the problems that have been biting at their heels for decades. The EU needs to be a model for shared wealth and less bureaucratic engagement, not this faceless **** show we have today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post blandy Posted August 5, 2017 Author Moderator Popular Post Share Posted August 5, 2017 11 hours ago, itdoesntmatterwhatthissay said: you're completely incorrect, the progressive thing here is for the EU to come back to the table, ask for a pause, and try and hammer out the problems that have been biting at their heels for decades. You're kidding right? Joking? the uk govt gave notice to leave (article 50) which has a 2 year timescale. We, our idiot Tory government, triggered the timer. The majority of the damage that will result will happen to the uk, its citizens, businesses and position...and the EU should ask us if we wouldn't mind awfully, y'know, just pausing? Priceless. 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 Quote Thousands of benefit claimants have won a landmark legal victory over the Tory government's welfare regime. Three top judges today ruled a one-month time limit on appealing against a benefits decision is unlawful. Instead the judges said the time limit should be 13 months after someone's benefits are rejected. CPAG brought the case on behalf of two women with serious mental and other health issues. They were both denied the disability benefit Employment and Support Allowance (ESA) after meeting a disability assessor. But they left it too late - five months in one case and 10 months in the other - to lodge their appeal. The case challenged Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) rules which say anyone who wants to appeal must go through an internal system called 'mandatory reconsideration' first. Those rules say most reconsiderations must be brought within a month. And because no one can mount a full appeal without going through the first step, people who missed the month's deadline found themselves without a shot at justice. The tribunal judgement said it was "concerned" and ruled claimants should have a "statutory right" to appeal, even if they miss the one-month deadline. It ruled the DWP had been wrongly stopping claimants from seeking justice since reconsiderations were introduced in 2013. A DWP spokesman said: "We have received the tribunal’s decision and are considering the judgement.” Mirror 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted August 6, 2017 Share Posted August 6, 2017 Quote Conservative MP launches 'Tory Glastonbury' after Jeremy Corbyn's success on the Pyramid Stage George Freeman MP asked 'why is it the left who have all the fun in politics?' A Conservative MP has revealed he is organising a 'Tory Glastonbury' following the boost given to Jeremy Corbyn at the music festival this year. George Freeman wants to establish the event for party activists and their families as way to bolster the Conservatives' dwindling grassroots support. He told the Financial Times he had already raised £25,000 for an idea which he said had "struck a chord" with those he asked for help. His plan for a "Conservative Ideas Festival", a one-day event to be held in September, would be less grand and is unlikely to attract titans of rock like The Foo Fighters and Radiohead. Instead, Mr Freeman who said he envisions the Conservative Ideas Festival as a "cross between Hay-on-Wye and the Latitude festival". A project team of more than 20 people, including 10 MPs, is working on Mr Freeman's event, which will be invitation-only with between 150 and 200 attendees, some of whom will camp. It will take place at a rural venue, with the location kept secret so the festival is not disrupted by the pro-Corbyn group Momentum, or other political opponents. Mr Freeman said he hoped it would become an annual fixture, adding that this year’s festival would be like a “first rave, you’ll remember who you brought”. The party’s membership has fallen to somewhere below 150,000 — less than one-third that of Labour’s and not far ahead of the Scottish National party and the Liberal Democrats. The Conservatives has also fallen behind Labour in opinion polls, while Mrs May’s personal ratings are below those of Mr Corbyn, who was once seen as unelectable. Mr Freeman believes the event could help kickstart interest in Tory activism, describing it as a one-day "friends and family event" that will be "relaxed" and unlike the "increasingly corporate, expensive, exclusive [political party] conferences" — which he says are no longer a forum for "grassroots renewal". The Conservatives will hold their annual party conference in Manchester at the start of October, charging companies £32,500 for a 6m by 6m exhibition stand. One sympathetic Conservative MP told the FT the idea was "very trendy" but would need "a lot of expensive booze" for him to attend. Independent 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted August 6, 2017 Share Posted August 6, 2017 'tory glastonbury' by secret invitation to the right sort of people only - couldn't make it up I hear the light show that closes the Sunday night main stage (Jim 'nick nick' Davidson) is something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted August 6, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted August 6, 2017 (edited) An event with 200 people, especially 200 Tories, is less Glastonbury and more village fete. Will there be a tombola? And Pimm's? Edited August 6, 2017 by Chindie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted August 6, 2017 Share Posted August 6, 2017 Great description from Red Labour: from Woodstock to Laughing Stock 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post bickster Posted August 6, 2017 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted August 6, 2017 1 hour ago, darrenm said: Great description from Red Labour: from Woodstock to Laughing Stock Some hilarious suggestions on twitter under the #NameTheToryGlasto My favourite so far is Austeri T in the Park 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itdoesntmatterwhatthissay Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 (edited) On 8/5/2017 at 10:28, blandy said: You're kidding right? Joking? the uk govt gave notice to leave (article 50) which has a 2 year timescale. We, our idiot Tory government, triggered the timer. The majority of the damage that will result will happen to the uk, its citizens, businesses and position...and the EU should ask us if we wouldn't mind awfully, y'know, just pausing? Priceless. Not in the least. I - unlike you - do not believe that Brexit will be a disaster even if we're in a really tough environment. I see so much potential in this country and its foundations that I am shocked so few people believe in. (not identifying anyone specifically). And that brings me onto the EU and why THEY NEED A PAUSE, not us! They have 28 member states to look after (or two as my work college says, Germany and France) and they have been losing their confidence one by one. Also if you remember they were the ones pushing for us to enact article 50 so we can get all this started! So were Labour, the media, the general population, almost everyone! The EU know they’re in a much more powerful position than us, at the moment, but they need reform much more than we need the EU to survive. That has been the case since before our referendum and it will remain the case until they reform. Priceless? Yup, good policy is. And it’s very difficult to find in the EU across all member states as is the desire to make that happen. Edited August 7, 2017 by itdoesntmatterwhatthissay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted August 7, 2017 Moderator Share Posted August 7, 2017 9 minutes ago, itdoesntmatterwhatthissay said: 1) ...I see so much potential in this country and its foundations that I am shocked so few people believe in. 2) ...the general population, almost everyone! 1) Go on, amuse us, that's a line right out of the Gove handbook, it even has his trademark lack of substantiation. I'm presuming you have an invite for the Platitude Festival next summer. 2) Another one out of the Brexiteers handbook. I can think of at least 48% of the population that didn't think that 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted August 7, 2017 Author Moderator Share Posted August 7, 2017 4 minutes ago, itdoesntmatterwhatthissay said: that brings me onto the EU and why THEY NEED A PAUSE, not us! They have 28 member states to look after (or two as my work college says, Germany and France) and they have been losing their confidence one by one. Also if you remember they were the ones pushing for us to enact article 50 so we can get all this started! So were Labour, the media, the general population, almost everyone! The EU know they’re in a much more powerful position than us, at the moment, but they need reform much more than we need the EU to survive. I agree the EU needs reform, I agree the EU is in a much stronger position than the UK, but as for them needing reform more than we need the EU, no, I don't see that. I really also don't get why the EU would need to ask for a pause, or why for the EU that would be good policy. We know that the EU is well prepared for the proceess and negotiations. We know that the EU has a set of detailed position papers, a set of trained, expert negotiators, we know that it has a set of conditions and demands and a framework set for the negotiations. We know that the UK is badly prepared for the process and negotiations, we know that memebrs of the GOvernment and Cabinet have completely differing views on what the UK position should be, and that therefore the UK does not have a clear position on what the UK wants from the process, or what outcome is being sought. We know that the UK Gov't has been caught by surprise by some of the impacts of leaving the ECJ, for example. We know that we do not have sufficient trained, expert negotiators, we know that people involved on our side have said how unprepared we are for the negotiations, we know that there have been a sequence of resignations of UK people involved and failures to attract top people to join our team. We know that in the UK the feelings about Brexit have shifted in the direction of " we should stay in" rather than "leave" and we know that across the EU the feelings towards the EU in the wake of the Brexit vote have been much more favourable than up to that point. We know that since the vote to leave, the UK has dropped from doing best out of the EU nations, to doing just about the worst, economically. We know that while some planned events have carried on unaffected, many others have not, we know that businesses are planning to move abroad, set up operations abroad in order to be able to continue to trade in the EU single market. These are all facts, and they're al lrelated, or most of them to the sheer incompetence of the Tory gov't.. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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