Chindie Posted July 10, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted July 10, 2017 Now now, its just that the Conservative Party has legitimate and Very Real Concerns that they've **** It. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 Lovely bunch aren't they? Quote A Tory Brexiteer has described the UK leaving the EU without a deal as a “real n*****r in the woodpile” at a meeting of eurosceptics in Central London. Anne Marie Morris, MP for Newton Abbott since 2010, made the astonishing remark while discussing what financial services deal the UK could struck with Brussels after 2019. Despite using the racist term, none of her fellow panelists, including Tory MPs Bill Cash and John Redwood, reacted. After saying just 7% of financial services in the UK would be affected by Brexit, Morris said: “Now I’m sure there will be many people who’ll challenge that, but my response and my request is look at the detail, it isn’t all doom and gloom. “Now we get to the real n****r in the woodpile which is in two years what happens if there is no deal?” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) 26 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: Lovely bunch aren't they? Another one bites the dust. However racism, and in particular anti-antisemitism, isn't only applicable to the tory party. Remember Ken Livingstone, Naz Shah, Diane Abbott (black women are better than white women) etc? If your "they" means all politicians, then yes I agree with you. If "they", is your attempt to brand all tory politicians as racists due to one idiotic bigot's statement then I don't. This lady will be out of the party within one week. Naz Shah is still part of the labour party after wanting to deport all jews to America, comparing Israel to Hitler's Germany and saying that deporting the jews to the US will "save them some pocket money". Labour have problems with racism that goes the other way to tory's racism - it's racism nonetheless and both parties have some pretty awful people in their midst. Edited July 10, 2017 by magnkarl 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted July 10, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted July 10, 2017 Her husband recently claimed education problems were caused by immigrants having high birth rates as well. All a tragic slip of the tongue and not indicative of really nasty views of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 12 minutes ago, magnkarl said: Another one bites the dust. However racism, and in particular anti-antisemitism, isn't only applicable to the tory party. Remember Ken Livingstone, Naz Shah, Diane Abbott (black women are better than white women) etc? If your "they" means all politicians, then yes I agree with you. If "they", is your attempt to brand all tory politicians as racists due to one idiotic bigot's statement then I don't. This lady will be out of the party within one week. Naz Shah is still part of the labour party after wanting to deport all jews to America, comparing Israel to Hitler's Germany and saying that deporting the jews to the US will "save them some pocket money". Labour have problems with racism that goes the other way to tory's racism - it's racism nonetheless and both parties have some pretty awful people in their midst. Look! Over there! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, darrenm said: Look! Over there! No such thing was said. Anne Marie Morris will be out of the conservative party within the week just like that other bigot they threw out during Eurovision who had an anti Roma rant and Rosemary Carrol that got removed the other day. Ken Livingstone got a temporary ban from standing for any seats for one year for a whole string of antisemitic incidents and views. Naz Shah was taken out of office for under a year for being a blatant racist several times over. The difference here is that labour lets its racists fester for longer before getting rid of them. If Naz Shah was part of the Tory party she'd be at the work centre right now. For a party that has, or had, anti racism at its heart labour has a clear double standard when it comes to members who are racists against someone that isn't a minority. Edited July 10, 2017 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted July 10, 2017 Moderator Share Posted July 10, 2017 18 minutes ago, magnkarl said: comparing Israel to Hitler's Germany Failing to see how that's racist or even a problem. Jews - not a race Israel - not a race Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is very much ripping a leaf out of the Hitler Handbook of Despotism Just because the Zionist lobby is well funded doesn't make Israel a great nation and comparing it to Hitlers Germany is not racist. Such is the power of the Zionist lobby they've even managed to appropriate the term anti-semitic to mean anti-Jew and get it in everyone's minds that being Jewish is something that is genetic, it isn't, like every other religion on this planet, following a religion, is a lifestyle choice. Even you seem to have fallen for the propaganda of the Zionist Lobby. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted July 10, 2017 Moderator Share Posted July 10, 2017 10 minutes ago, magnkarl said: and Rosemary Carrol that got removed the other day. Still, a Tory last time I checked (approx 30 secs ago) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 Just can't catch a break eh Theresa? Start building a narrative about 'ultra-left radicals' abusing everyone online and start linking them with Corbyn and Labour and then one of your own accidentally lets the mask slip for a minute and you're back to square one. Same problem with the Corbyn is a terrorist supporter narrative - an actual IRA ex-member was discovered as a Tory councillor and then Tories went full sympathiser with the DUP. They're running out of things to throw at Labour that they don't then go and **** up even worse themselves. I assume it'll be back to Diane Abbott's numbers next week for the slow of wit to parrot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 40 minutes ago, bickster said: Failing to see how that's racist or even a problem. Jews - not a race Israel - not a race Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is very much ripping a leaf out of the Hitler Handbook of Despotism Just because the Zionist lobby is well funded doesn't make Israel a great nation and comparing it to Hitlers Germany is not racist. Such is the power of the Zionist lobby they've even managed to appropriate the term anti-semitic to mean anti-Jew and get it in everyone's minds that being Jewish is something that is genetic, it isn't, like every other religion on this planet, following a religion, is a lifestyle choice. Even you seem to have fallen for the propaganda of the Zionist Lobby. I don't think much of your thesis but I won't disagree because it will be more interesting to see if anyone with Leftist sympathies will object to your characterisation of the Jewish problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted July 10, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted July 10, 2017 Unfortunate turn of phrase. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 10, 2017 Author Moderator Share Posted July 10, 2017 Quote comparing Israel to Hitler's Germany On 7/10/2017 at 16:19, bickster said: Failing to see how that's racist or even a problem. Jews - not a race Israel - not a race Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is very much ripping a leaf out of the Hitler Handbook of Despotism It's not racist, but equating them is a bit of a problem, I think, because the comparison is out of kilter with reality. Israel is a democracy, not a dictatorship. Nazi Germany pretty much wanted to eliminate, or at least considered inferior anyone who wasn't Aryan, or was disabled and so on and murdered millions in the holocaust. They Nazis set themselves up as superior beings and sort of aimed for or desired global omnipotence. For all it's many horrors Israel is not remotely on the same scale. The Israeli Gov't has done and continues to behave utterly disgracefully and has committed some awful atrocities...but it's still not like Hitler's Germany. And another massive difference is Israel's approach to people who are jewish of any colour or ethnicity and so on - they're all welcome into Israel. Israel's treatment of Palestine and Palestinians is a complete disgrace, but still... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 No extra pay rise for teachers as Theresa May approves 1 per cent hike despite calls to end the cap Quote Teachers' pay will remain capped at 1 per cent, the Department for Education has announced, as the Government sticks to public sector wage restraint. It follows weeks of wrangling over whether public sector workers should be given a pay increase above the 1 per cent cap imposed by the previous Conservative Government. Ministers have accepted the recommendation of the School Teachers' Review Body (STRB), which said there should be a 1 per cent increase for all pay ranges. The body is independent but works to a remit set out by the Treasury. ...more on link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted July 10, 2017 Moderator Share Posted July 10, 2017 4 minutes ago, blandy said: Failing to see how that's racist or even a problem. It's not racist, but equating them is a bit of a problem, I think, because the comparison is out of kilter with reality. Israel is a democracy, not a dictatorship. Nazi Germany pretty much wanted to eliminate, or at least considered inferior anyone who wasn't Aryan, or was disabled and so on and murdered millions in the holocaust. They Nazis set themselves up as superior beings and sort of aimed for or desired global omnipotence. For all it's many horrors Israel is not remotely on the same scale. The Israeli Gov't has done and continues to behave utterly disgracefully and has committed some awful atrocities...but it's still not like Hitler's Germany. And another massive difference is Israel's approach to people who are jewish of any colour or ethnicity and so on - they're all welcome into Israel. Israel's treatment of Palestine and Palestinians is a complete disgrace, but still... Sorry, Pete but I didn't say I equated Zionism with Nazism. Just that Israel's treatment of the Palestinians was pretty similar to some of the things Hitler did. Stolen their land, ghettoised them, demonised them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 10, 2017 Author Moderator Share Posted July 10, 2017 49 minutes ago, bickster said: Israel's treatment of the Palestinians... Yeah, Israel has been utterly, despicably brutal towards the Palestinians, no arguments there. Sorry I misunderstood your point. Mine is that "comparing Israel to Hitler's Germany" (without qualification) is ludicrously OTT and that it is a problem because it's disproportionate. Absolutely nothing is genuinely of comparable horror. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, bickster said: Sorry, Pete but I didn't say I equated Zionism with Nazism. Just that Israel's treatment of the Palestinians was pretty similar to some of the things Hitler did. Stolen their land, ghettoised them, demonised them... Coming from a family where half of it is Jewish I'd love for you to qualify that. My grandfather came here out of a place where they burned people alive, shot people, hung people, tested on people and denied it afterwards. A place where they killed people on an industrial scale because of race and religion. He came here only to be greeted with "no Jews and Irish in this store" hanging on almost every corner. Compare a British elected MP saying "We should deport all Jews to America, that'll save them some pocket money too!" to someone saying the N word. Racism and apologetic attitudes to racism because it is done against a race that you don't see as oppressed is ridiculous. Naz Shah is an utter racist for her comments, it just didn't fit the colour range that labour qualify as racism. Put a tory MP in her boots and make them say "we should deport all west indies inhabitants of African descent back to Africa" and everyone would be up in arms. I may not agree with what the Israel state is doing to Palestinians, however if Wales hurled rockets at Birmingham every other week England would also enforce laws of conflict. Labour has a huge problem with anti-antisemitism and what you've just said here goes to show just that. It's okay though, Jews have money right? They've got a state full of bankers that shoot people on sight, right? Many of the families in my mother's circles stopped voting for labour for just this reason - it's in to be racist to Jews in the labour party. Israel is a state in a place where everyone is hostile to them because we put them there for feeling guilty about oppressing Jews since the 1500's. They are overly defensive and attack minded to threats because they've been invaded twice since the founding of their new nation - something no one who is currently alive in Britain has ever experienced. When a labour supporter starts using the word that starts with Z you know that it's going to be murky waters ahead. Do you even know what Zionism is? You are confusing the actions of a democratically elected state to that of a sect of orthodox Jews. Just like Christianity has Mormons and other fruitcakes Jews have Zionists. To make this into a world spanning conspiracy theory is part of the problem of modern antisemitism. People think that the Jews own the world because a few people in Manhattan are rich - sorry to break it to you, 99% of us are just like you and we don't hoard money or sit in vaults counting money. The fact that a British MP can get away with saying something as insensitive as comparing what a man who killed 6-12 million Jews did to what a state who is defending itself aggressively is doing exemplifies the problem to a huge extent. The last time I wore my kippah was when my granddad got buried - when we went to the funeral we passed by a Pakistani store where a man screamed "effin jews!" through the door of his off licence. The same man came to my parents' door two weeks later to canvas for labour. Edited July 10, 2017 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 I don't agree with Bicksters point or definition on racism. But you're asking him to qualify a statement, where the bit you've quoted does already appear to be a qualification. I don't think there's a good argument on either side of the whole Israel thing. They've behaved despicably, as have the other team. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post HanoiVillan Posted July 10, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted July 10, 2017 1 hour ago, magnkarl said: it's in to be racist to Jews in the labour party. Just so we're clear on the scale and depth of the problem of anti-semitism in the Labour party: Labour, prior to the recent election, had 228 MP's, one of whom was suspended for anti-semitism (0.4%) Labour has more than 400,000 members, of whom around 50 have been suspended for anti-semitism (<0.01%) Labour is the largest political party in western Europe - by a considerable margin - in a country in which roughly 10% of the public will tell pollsters that they don't much like Jewish people. It would be fairly astonishing if there were absolutely zero anti-semites in a party of this size. It's not right, and it's not okay, but I absolutely object to your characterisation that 'it's in to be racist to Jews in the Labour party'. It isn't, at all. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 2 hours ago, magnkarl said: When a labour supporter starts using the word that starts with Z Which labour supporter did that? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, HanoiVillan said: Just so we're clear on the scale and depth of the problem of anti-semitism in the Labour party: Labour, prior to the recent election, had 228 MP's, one of whom was suspended for anti-semitism (0.4%) Labour has more than 400,000 members, of whom around 50 have been suspended for anti-semitism (<0.01%) Labour is the largest political party in western Europe - by a considerable margin - in a country in which roughly 10% of the public will tell pollsters that they don't much like Jewish people. It would be fairly astonishing if there were absolutely zero anti-semites in a party of this size. It's not right, and it's not okay, but I absolutely object to your characterisation that 'it's in to be racist to Jews in the Labour party'. It isn't, at all. Which is fair enough - and I don't have a problem with people in Labour. I have a problem with the way labour deals with clear antisemitism from MP's and higher ranking people like Shah and Livingstone. The fact that Livingstone can still be a member and just be given a fake "suspension" after saying that Hitler actually worked closely with the Jewish community in Germany before he wiped them all out is like putting antisemitism in system. The fact that Shah is still in office shows that people don't really care when people are insensitive and bigoted to someone who is Jewish. The difference here is that Morris will be out of the party forever for her crappy racist comments. Labour lets bigots like Shah and Livingstone continue having central roles in their party. Any racist has no place as an MP or an important member of a party in my book, and I am sure you agree. With being the biggest party in Europe comes a lot of responsibility. There is this huge misconception that it's okay to be antisemitic these days from a lot of walks of life - and the labour party should be the last place that this should be allowed. Things like saying that Israel and Nazi Germany is the "same or similar" is incredibly short sighted. In total around 21,500 people have died on both sides in the Israel-Palestine conflict. That is 2% of the Jews that got killed in Treblinka alone. How people can even compare such things boggles my mind. I am in no way shape or order defending what neither Palestine or Israel is doing in their conflict. Both Likud and Hamas are fueling a fire that should have been put out long ago. Our support of either side is wrong, and the way that some people think it's now okay to support a group like Hamas that gives out stipends to families of kids who blow themselves up in Israel shows extreme inconsideration for both Palestinians and Israelis. My previous post might have gone a bit off kilter and become a bit emotional, but as someone who has been a target of antisemitism constantly hearing educated people saying "Jews aren't a race - so people being idiotic against Jews aren't really racist" I find that I lose my patience. There's very few people in Europe that have been treated as badly as the Jews for the past 500 years. Jews are defined as an ethnoreligious group. The ethno part should give it up. The first step that has often taken place before Jews got displaced and mistreated is that people start marginalising them. "They're not a race, it's just a religion" "they've taken Israel from the people that lived there" and so on can become an incredibly slippery slope. It was the UK, US and Russia that decided that Israel was a good place to put the Jews - not the Jews themselves. They were too busy reeling from over 70% of their world wide population being wiped out by someone who is apparently doing a lot of things that Israel is now doing.. Edited July 11, 2017 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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