itdoesntmatterwhatthissay Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Davkaus said: That is pretty funny. During the election campaign she talked about how Corbyn would be 'naked and alone' during Brexit negotiations. turns out that May is naked, alone, and begging the opposition to keep her company. I don't see the relevance unless you care less about policy than politics? Why argue who is the bigger prat when we should be solving problems? You can say 'begging' if you like but it would be very helpful if Brexit conversations got cross-party support. Other parties have tried to get those meetings together (and we've had some successful ones) but Labour seem particularly disengaged and their ministers don't appear to know a thing. Maybe they do, but it would be nice if they showed that instead of saying stupid things like 'the conservatives are begging for policies" Good job we have this new type of politics eh! Edited July 10, 2017 by itdoesntmatterwhatthissay 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 It takes a special blend of hypocrisy and arrogance to loudly proclaim that Labour will have no allies going in to Brexit negotiations, only to ask for Labour's support a month later. May made it very clear her bunch of words removed wouldn't cooperate in any way should Corbyn be leading the negotiations. Regardless of that, he'd be a fool to accept this poisoned olive branch, it's nothing more than a means of smearing the other parties with the fallout when Brexit goes tits up. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 26 minutes ago, itdoesntmatterwhatthissay said: I don't see the relevance unless you care less about policy than politics? Why argue who is the bigger prat when we should be solving problems? You can say 'begging' if you like but it would be very helpful if Brexit conversations got cross-party support. Other parties have tried to get those meetings together (and we've had some successful ones) but Labour seem particularly disengaged and their ministers don't appear to know a thing. Maybe they do, but it would be nice if they showed that instead of saying stupid things like 'the conservatives are begging for policies" Good job we have this new type of politics eh! The main strategy of Momentum seems to be about avoiding discussions of Labour policies and just attacking the Tories. A replay of Labour's strategy leading up to the 1997 election. Obviously, it can't get so gloriously knockabout as back then because of the lady in question but they are hoping for the same result. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted July 10, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted July 10, 2017 The issue will be Labour will be damned whatever they do. Help and they get tarred with the disaster too. Don't and Brexit failed because Labour undermined it, etc. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itdoesntmatterwhatthissay Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Chindie said: The issue will be Labour will be damned whatever they do. Help and they get tarred with the disaster too. Don't and Brexit failed because Labour undermined it, etc. There's a strong element of truth to that but so what? Their job is fix the country, not cement their careers! For the many not the few indeed! Whatever side of the house, spectrum or debate you are, if you can't co-operate during Brexit (and don't want to), then you really should get punished by the electorate. Edited July 10, 2017 by itdoesntmatterwhatthissay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Chindie Posted July 10, 2017 VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted July 10, 2017 10 minutes ago, itdoesntmatterwhatthissay said: There's a strong element of truth to that but so what? Their job is fix the country, not cement their careers! For the many not the few indeed! Whatever side of the house, spectrum or debate you are, if you can't co-operate during Brexit (and don't want to), then you really should get punished by the electorate. Might I suggest that the Tories are less interested in doing what's good for the country and more thinking 'you **** are getting tarred with us'. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 And of course "cooperating" will mean nothing short of going along with every single thing that the tories try to push through that's tangentially related to Europe. How much compromise do you think will be coming from the tory camp? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) To make a considered assessment about how seriously she is seeking cooperation, shouldn't we reflect on whether the Prime Minister would have made the same kind of request if she were sitting on a majority of 30 or 40 (let alone the kind of one she thought she'd get)? Edited July 10, 2017 by snowychap Too many whethers. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted July 10, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted July 10, 2017 Why go to the press with it if it was an honest hand of cooperation? It's coercion, a threat. Work with us (read 'do what we say') or be killed by the line we'll spin first. This doesn't happen if she had more seats. It's blatant petty politics that has the brass neck to make out those that oppose it are the ones playing games. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itdoesntmatterwhatthissay Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Chindie said: Might I suggest that the Tories are less interested in doing what's good for the country and more thinking 'you **** are getting tarred with us'. Maybe! But do you think it's better to stand on a platform of opposition or stand up to be counted in the conversation? I know what sort of party and MP i'd want to be and which should get my vote. 17 minutes ago, Davkaus said: And of course "cooperating" will mean nothing short of going along with every single thing that the tories try to push through that's tangentially related to Europe. How much compromise do you think will be coming from the tory camp? Who cares! Set an agenda of solutions because you understand policies and the campaigning will take care of itself, especially if you're Labour! That's basically how Corbyn finally achieved his platform, because others didn't co-operate! Even his party! Plus, compromise lifted so many people out of income tax, stimulated apprenticeships and delivered pupil premiums, but heck, what's cooperation worth when you can be anti-Conservative instead. Edited July 10, 2017 by itdoesntmatterwhatthissay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itdoesntmatterwhatthissay Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Chindie said: Why go to the press with it if it was an honest hand of cooperation? It's coercion, a threat. Work with us (read 'do what we say') or be killed by the line we'll spin first. This doesn't happen if she had more seats. It's blatant petty politics that has the brass neck to make out those that oppose it are the ones playing games. Maybe the press wasn't interested in stories of co-operation, or they might have published info about the many cross party Brexit meetings that have already happened? The Conservatives have 100% invited all parties to get involved well before the election. I know because I attended some of the meetings! Is it enough? Nowhere near, neither is the conversation! But it's many many times better than what Labour are, or aren't doing. Edited July 10, 2017 by itdoesntmatterwhatthissay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post HanoiVillan Posted July 10, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted July 10, 2017 Just now, itdoesntmatterwhatthissay said: Maybe the press wasn't interested in stories of co-operation, or they might have published info about the many cross party Brexit meetings that have already happened? The Conservatives have 100% invited all parties to get involved well before the election. I know because I attended some of the meetings! Is it enough? Nowhere near, neither is the conversation! But it's many many times better than what Labour are, or aren't doing. Once again, politics is not only what happens behind closed doors in meetings with lobbyists, it's also what happens (in fact, it's primarily what happens) in the public sphere. And in the public sphere, May spent the previous 11 months calling anyone who disagreed with her 'unpatriotic' and encouraging friendly media outlets to call people with different beliefs 'saboteurs' and 'enemies of the people'. I have no sympathy for her now she's fallen on hard times. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted July 10, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted July 10, 2017 9 minutes ago, itdoesntmatterwhatthissay said: Maybe! But do you think it's better to stand on a platform of opposition or stand up to be counted in the conversation? I know what sort of party and MP i'd want to be and which should get my vote. I'd prefer my MP to do what I think is right. Which is to oppose Brexit and tell all the Brexiteers to go **** themselves. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 2 hours ago, magnkarl said: No matter what happens we'll have a weak government. Labour doesn't have the MP's to push anything through and the tories are all over the place. I can only hope that this is the start of an era of proper coalitions where our politics aren't either bloody red or bloody blue. It'd be great if our parliament started voting for policy rather than political leanings where we could see what is right for the electorate coming first. Want to win my vote? Scrap the pay cap. Negotiate with decency with Brussels, hold people in power accountable when they fudge up, devolve power to local authority to spend on apprenticeships and local economy. Stop the scaremongering that started under Blair and get on with the job. We don't need the current squabbling that is happening in parliament but rather an effective representation of the country's interests. Hope it happens. You have to ask yourself, why is politics so polarising and divisive, why does it have to be left or right, or red or blue. Just imagine what could be accomplished if people just pulled together and did what was right for everyone instead of them and theirs. That's exactly the reason it will never happen, much as in 'The Matrix', it's the illusion of choice that is in itself a form of control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itdoesntmatterwhatthissay Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 1 minute ago, HanoiVillan said: Once again, politics is not only what happens behind closed doors in meetings with lobbyists, it's also what happens (in fact, it's primarily what happens) in the public sphere. And in the public sphere, May spent the previous 11 months calling anyone who disagreed with her 'unpatriotic' and encouraging friendly media outlets to call people with different beliefs 'saboteurs' and 'enemies of the people'. I have no sympathy for her now she's fallen on hard times. Exactly! And May was rejected wasn't she?!!!! The media saw through it and the electorate gave her a kicking! I am not asking for sympathy for her, I am asking people to look past their ideologies and solve our problems! That's us guys, voters, MP's, parties, the media...everybody! If government needs ideas why not help them? Just because they asked before the election and it wasn't reported the the public sphere doesn't mean it didn't happen! Just like the pathetic stores run by pro-Labour papers this morning, it's rhetoric or the worst kind of politics. I fully expect someone like Corbyn to co-operate because while he hates the Conservatives, he's not entrenched enough to be for the few and not the many.....well, time will tell! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 1 hour ago, itdoesntmatterwhatthissay said: I don't see the relevance unless you care less about policy than politics? Why argue who is the bigger prat when we should be solving problems? You can say 'begging' if you like but it would be very helpful if Brexit conversations got cross-party support. Other parties have tried to get those meetings together (and we've had some successful ones) but Labour seem particularly disengaged and their ministers don't appear to know a thing. Maybe they do, but it would be nice if they showed that instead of saying stupid things like 'the conservatives are begging for policies" Good job we have this new type of politics eh! Wasn't the whole point of the election to block labour from any access to any whiff of power for a generation to come. The spectre of Corbyn having any say on anything was the pitch from May. She needed to prove she was strong and stable whilst giving people the mental image of a rabid extreme left labour party headed up by Corbyn naked and alone in some EU negotiating dungeon. You remember when she got really really weird? To go from that, to asking for help and assistance from others AFTER giving £1.5 Billion to the DUP to get the propping up they require all feels a bit of a sorry tale. I suspect she's simply realised she cannot deliver what she has promised on Brexit, all this Brexit means Brexit vacuous crap that bought her 12 months. So now, having over promised, she's hoping the people she feared and hated will volunteer to step in and share the shame and the blame. There's a good chance she's not very good at this. Just as well for Labour that she is this poor at it, because their position is equally dumb, but they have the good fortune of not having won the big competiton to grasp the shitty stick. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 10, 2017 Author Moderator Share Posted July 10, 2017 2 minutes ago, itdoesntmatterwhatthissay said: If government needs ideas why not help them? I accept the first part of the underlying statement - that they have no idea. The second part, not so much. They're not asking for ideas really. I mean most of parliament think Brexit is a bad idea. Most of parliament thinks end the pay cap on nurses and police etc. As Chindie and others have said, May is just trying to spread the future blame and hold on to her job. I don't believe for a momnet it's a genuine offer of a consensual, cross party approach to anything. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 On co-operating with the tories to help them out of their own hole, Nick Clegg says hi! Though actually, this really is bigger than party politics. They really should all get together and issue some sort of joint statement to the nation explaining the stupidity of the Brexit argument and the poor quality of information available to the public and the nonesense pledged by leading politicians. Senior members of government got us here by playing silly games. They need to apologise and resign, then we can start taking the rest of them seriously. They are doing extreme harm to this country. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 36 minutes ago, itdoesntmatterwhatthissay said: Exactly! And May was rejected wasn't she?!!!! The media saw through it and the electorate gave her a kicking! I am not asking for sympathy for her, I am asking people to look past their ideologies and solve our problems! That's us guys, voters, MP's, parties, the media...everybody! If government needs ideas why not help them? Just because they asked before the election and it wasn't reported the the public sphere doesn't mean it didn't happen! Just like the pathetic stores run by pro-Labour papers this morning, it's rhetoric or the worst kind of politics. I fully expect someone like Corbyn to co-operate because while he hates the Conservatives, he's not entrenched enough to be for the few and not the many.....well, time will tell! I don't fully understand the point, I guess. The opposition will propose policies and amendments, as they normally do. They will give speeches and their think tanks will publish reports. If the government decide they love these ideas, they are welcome to help themselves, I doubt Labour will complain. But I don't think that's what she means. I suspect she means, 'vote for my policies and prop up my government or I'll accuse you of being unpatriotic', or something along those lines. To which I sincerely hope that Labour don't fall into the trap. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 May is a callous, untrustworthy, spineless **** toad and the Conservative party, on the whole, aren't much better. It's naive in the extreme to think any "plea for contribution" is a legitimate one. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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