Relegation Thread Version...99?!

[Nabby]

We finished the season poorly and whilst performances have improved we are still conceding soft goals and not wining , we are still stuck in a downwards tailspin 

Leicester are the polar opposite to us , they have momentum from last season and have carried it on we need to get a run of wins going.It doesn't get an easier though ...

[markavfc40]

Three worse teams ? Not sure at the moment 

 

 

I am confident there are at least three worse sides. Certainly the three promoted clubs. I think West Brom and Newcastle will struggle and there is not a cat in hells chance that Leicester will maintain their early form. They remind me of our start last season.

Points on the board then we have certainly had a poor return. However I think our performances have warranted a greater return. I realise in the grand scheme of thing if’s and buts mean jack shit but I would much rather be sitting here typing that we have been in every game we have played and but for a couple of individual mistakes, including by the manager, we could easily have been sitting on 9 or 10 points rather than typing we have been absolutely crap and got what we deserve.

I am supremely confident the longer the season goes on in the main the better we will get. This is not based on false hope but on what I have seen with my own eyes. Against Sunderland we were very good, likewise for 45 minutes yesterday. In both those games we had players missing that will be very important to us – yesterday Gana and Traore. Against Sunderland Grealish, Traore and Gabby.

We are a work in progress and I fully expected that given the huge turnover in players it would take time for the squad to gel and for the manager to come up with his best team/formation. It should also be acknowledged that we do have a very inexperienced manager who is still learning and in many aspects is a little naïve. Like many of the players though I believe he has enough about him to learn from his mistakes and the longer the season goes on the better he will get.

Yesterday was a huge kick in the b*llocks and looking at the table now then then we have had a poor return. I am though supremely confident based on what I have seen that unlike recent seasons we will not be panicking come next April as we now have a very good mixture of proven quality and experience combined with a number of players, and a manager, with huge potential. Once it all clicks, and I believe it will, then we will be fine.

 

Edited September 14, 2015 by markavfc40

[danceoftheshamen]

I am hoping and praying that my and many others early appraisal of Gestede and Ayew is way off. What concerns me is we are still hearing noises of Sherwood courting Adebayor which says to me he is concerned at our strike force and with good reason from what i've seen. I'm just hoping we start to see a big improvement from both as the season progresses although frankly i am very unsure. 

No coincidence then that our goals yesterday came from midfielders and most of our goals prior to yesterdays embarrassment came from another midielder who is now being desperately converted into a striker apparently, another sure sign of Sherwoods concern regards our other strikers Gabby included.

Gabby is a conundrum, he poses so much threat with his pace and teams hate it as it keeps them on the back foot defensively, but yet he hardly contributes with goals and misses sitter after sitter. It's infuriating frankly to see a player with such pace but with the finishing prowess of a fullback. He does set up the odd goal, as he did Gil's yesterday but its just way to rare.

Defence: I feel we have the makings of a decent defence though i thought Lescott tried too hard to make a big impact yesterday causing him to overplay and lose the ball on several occasions in dangerous positions instead of just clearing the ball. This encouraged Leicester at a time we needed to do the opposite.

I also am less than impressed by our goalkeepers. Most prem keepers save points, ours frankly just save most of the stuff any keeper should save but are always beaten too easily by anything other than bread & butter stuff. Top keepers do the bread & butter stuff well with just the odd blunder here & there but then also pull off a few miracle saves per season thus saving points. They also get the team going on the counter well with good, fast and accurate distribution. Our keepers just do the bread & butter stuff but their bread is somewhat thinner than most due a smaller physicality in my opinion.  For example i feel the first Leicester fluke would have been saved by a better keeper, a taller one like Pantillimon for example i feel would have had the height to get to that. We'll ever know for sure and that may not be the best example but i am certain we wouldn't concede quite so many with a taller more agile keeper. Guzan is quite small and chunky for a keeper which makes him a decent shot stopper if it's within his range but little else.

Midfield on the other hand i am impressed with & Traore is gonna be a huge player for this club. i liken him to a modern day Tony Morley but with more tricks in his locker.

So relegation? I think it depends on a few things..1. Can we keep Traore fit? 2. Will Ayew or Gestede come good enough? 3. Will we address the issues and still be close enough in Jan to get out of whatever trouble we are in? 4. Will Tim learn to stop meddling and rolling the dice when we are in a winning position?

[Arj Guy]

Norwich look half decent. Think it's between us, Bournemouth, Sunderland and Watford

[Supervillan78]

We have a decent team IMO,  but individual errors and conceding stupid late goals always seem to cost us.

However I have more faith in this team than I ever did last year. Last season we were so reliant on Benteke, he was our only real goal threat at least now we can create/score from midfield.

Richards and Lescott will need a little time to gel, while Amavi is a huge improvement on what we had. RB is still a concern but Rome wasn't built in a day.

This is without doubt a transitional season, people should expect  a few bumps in the road, but unlike last year I really believe we are building something great.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Supervillan78

[Rodders]

Yesterday was despairing inducing and made me so angry with manager and players, but I think we will be fine eventually. Veretout getting up to speed will be important to add more bite and control into the midfield and as Gill and Grealish continue to develop so will our creativity, Traore will have more of an impact - and I presume Lescott can only get better with more games. Tim cannot possibly continue to be naive about substitutions for a whole season - I am sure he must  - I hope - recognise that in a quieter moment, perhaps Ray will have a word - get better and learn. There is plenty of scope for improvement, and new players who we are undoubtedly yet to see the best of, in an early stage of the season.

 

No qualms with the thread though, there are a lot of ifs about us improving. Until the paper quality / potential translates onto the pitch, it'll be tough.

[Dodgyknees]

To quote a legend, we'll be just fine.

[BOF]

The results aren't there but the performances certainly are, I think.  That gives me plenty of hope.  Plus we've probably not seen our best first 11 yet through injury.  We obviously need results to pick up as soon as possible because performances alone won't keep us up.  Getting 1 point from the games against Palace, Sunderland and Leicester is relegation form in itself, but we were always going to be on a steep learning curve after this summer.  That includes Sherwood's learning curve too.  Most, if not all, fans knew that, and things haven't changed on that front so neither should our outlook.  If anything, we're playing better than I thought we would be at this stage in the season.  We had the beating of Leicester and we had the beating of Sunderland.  Just need to make that kind of form count now going into the next set of fixtures.

[romavillan]

Personally I think this thread will be close by the start of April.

When we were in the runs of poor form under Lambert and McLeish, there was really nto much grounds for hope, especially if Benteke was injured. Until we completely lost our collective heads yesterday we saw two attacking midfielders score. How long have we waited for that? As others have said, the stupid stuff can be fixed, in theory our defence is much stronger than last year and we appear to be able to score from different areas of the pitch. I think if we can get get Grealish, Gil and Traore regularly playing together then something very good might be abotu to happen, regardless of who is up top.  

 

EDIT: @BOF was typing mine when you posted yours...

Edited September 14, 2015 by romavillan

[BOF]

Yep Roma, that's it.  There's loads of promise there and we've hardly seen enough of Veretout either who IMO has looked very clever when he's been on.  I think ultimately if we can have some combination of Grealish, Gil, Sinclair & Traore behind Gestede (let me explain ...) then we'll be dangerous.  Gestede is there for both the crosses and the knockdowns that bring the mids into the game.  We are very much a work in progress whereas; like you say; in the past few season we knew that what we were watching wasn't really going to get any better.  Now though, every game sees a little something new.  Now that Jack has that monkey off his back, hopefully he can push on now.

[osmark86]

I also think we'll be fine, we seem to play better overall than from what I saw last season. There certainly are issues that need sorting out mainly due to inexperience and a mix of new players learning to play together, but this should sort itself out with time. The most pressing issues right now seem to be getting our striker options up to speed which I think Sherwood was hoping to get from yesterdays game (backfired completely and unnecessarily). Also Tim needs to learn to control leads and make sure we play for the full 90 minutes. We cannot keep on conceding time and time again in the final stages of matches. This is a recipe for disaster and needs to be addressed immediately and sorted out. I know we're all very upset about the result yesterday, and rightfully so, but I do not think that will be a representation of the entire season. Keep the faith.

[SikhInTrinity]

Second favourites for the drop.

[roonst83]

Yep Roma, that's it.  There's loads of promise there and we've hardly seen enough of Veretout either who IMO has looked very clever when he's been on.  I think ultimately if we can have some combination of Grealish, Gil, Sinclair & Traore behind Gestede (let me explain ...) then we'll be dangerous.  Gestede is there for both the crosses and the knockdowns that bring the mids into the game.  We are very much a work in progress whereas; like you say; in the past few season we knew that what we were watching wasn't really going to get any better.  Now though, every game sees a little something new.  Now that Jack has that monkey off his back, hopefully he can push on now.

The issue here for me is Gestede doesn't win enough headers when facing his own goal - so he doesn't bring anyone else into the game. Since his great header against Bournemouth i've barely seen him win much in the air. That worries me. But perhaps if we (as you suggest) have people such as Traore providing for him then we may see more from him. One of Benteke's strengths was bringing others into play and were definitely missing any striker being able to do that. 

Edited September 14, 2015 by roonst83

[Gary Thomas]

Was always going to be a bumpy ride with lots of lows and highs this year.  Wins against Albion and Blues and the world will be rosy again and we'll be pushing for a European spot !  Tim (and I would add the fans) need to work hard to maintain the confidence and belief of the players after hard losses such as this.  If we keep backing them this group will come good for us.

[Gary Thomas]

 

I agree the striker options need to be sorted, but to me there are two critical areas to fix.  One is the right side of defence that was really shocking yesterday in the second half – if you can bring yourself to watch it, look at the first 20mins of the second half – tells you everything you need to know  The second, and bigger issue, is the midfield.  That’s our strength and our weakness.  We have loads of creativity and attacking options, but the search for more goals and creativity from the three in midfield can make us quite weak defensively at times.  In the second half yesterday Gil, Grealish Sinclair were run ragged by a stronger and more aggressive midfield and they could not cope, which put a lot of pressure on our defence which eventually capitulated under the pressure.  Westward kept pushing up to help and 4-2-3 often looked like 4-1-4, but the four was weak defensively and kept drifting left.  Gana was obviously a big loss and I think Veratout can also play an important role in strengthening our defensive capabilities as well as offering some creativity.  Tim needs to get the balance right in the midfield according to the situation – that, for me, was a big lesson from yesterday.  Have to balance flare and creativity with strength and defence.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Gary Thomas

[osmark86]

 

I agree the striker options need to be sorted, but to me there are two critical areas to fix.  One is the right side of defence that was really shocking yesterday in the second half – if you can bring yourself to watch it, look at the first 20mins of the second half – tells you everything you need to know  The second, and bigger issue, is the midfield.  That’s our strength and our weakness.  We have loads of creativity and attacking options, but the search for more goals and creativity from the three in midfield can make us quite weak defensively at times.  In the second half yesterday Gil, Grealish Sinclair were run ragged by a stronger and more aggressive midfield and they could not cope, which put a lot of pressure on our defence which eventually capitulated under the pressure.  Westward kept pushing up to help and 4-2-3 often looked like 4-1-4, but the four was weak defensively and kept drifting left.  Gana was obviously a big loss and I think Veratout can also play an important role in strengthening our defensive capabilities as well as offering some creativity.  Tim needs to get the balance right in the midfield according to the situation – that, for me, was a big lesson from yesterday.  Have to balance flare and creativity with strength and defence.

I agree. It was plain to see that Bacuna was caught out of position too often putting Lescott in a tight spot. I mentioned this in the Lescott thread as I didn't think he performed as badly as some have pointed out. I also think that Sherwood was wrong in his substitutions as he didn't react to Leicester's increasing pressure in the middle of the pitch. I believe he was hoping that either Ayew or Gestede would score a third and breaking their spell of drought and poor confidence but it really backfired on us. Had he made a more defensive substitution in an attempt to control Mahrez that would have been the correct decision. Veretout/Clark on for Gabby/Gil (he was visibly knackered) and we most likely would have seen a different result. Our defense was pushed to its limits and the result shows it. We should not forget though that we were the better team for a larger portion of the game (60-65 minutes) and we can only hope we learn from these mistakes which I believe we will.

[Rob182]

This feels like a knee jerk reaction thread, to me.

 

Though we haven't got the results this season, we haven't looked as bad as we have in the past 'relegation battle' seasons. I genuinely think we'll finish between 10th-14th.

 

We currently have a manager who is still learning, a handful of players still getting used to the league and a team that is still gelling together. Had we been battered for the whole game, then I'd agree that it's time to panic. But we weren't.

 

There were moments in the game where we played some lovely football, we scored two great goals and some of the defending from Amavi, Lescott and Richards was exceptional. Adding to that, we've got some other truly exciting players in Traore and Gueye. All in all, I've seen enough to be confident that we won't be as bad as in recent years, and with Tim (hopefully) ironing out these rookie mistakes, we'll avoid another end of season relegation battle.

[myb]

Currently sat in the 'we'll be fine' camp but desperate to see some of the decentish performances we're seeing turn into points. I don't think it's beyond daft to suggest that we could (should?) have at least another 4/5/6 points on the board. If our side of the last 5 years has been good enough to survive then this one certainly is.

i think this team has the potential to put a run of games together that would see a reasonable points return over a relatively short space of time. I don't think I've felt that about a villa team for a while. Cut out daft mistakes, make the right changes at the right time and I think this team has potential to be a good PL team. 

Edited September 14, 2015 by myb

[Gary Thomas]

Yesterday was despairing inducing and made me so angry with manager and players, but I think we will be fine eventually. Veretout getting up to speed will be important to add more bite and control into the midfield

Spot on.  Him and Gana are going to be very important I think because they are multifaceted i.e. they can be creative and attacking while also giving us bite and control when we need it.  

[jackbauer24]

I think I must be watching a different game to a lot of you. I've a season ticket sitting practically next to Sherwood and my eye sight is perfect, yet I'm not seeing this massive improvement in performances others seem to be!

We haven't actually dominated a game all season and to highlight Sunderland and Leicester games in particular as points that got away gives a great deal of credit when it's not due! Sunderland game might be closest to that but actually they took the lead and hardly had to fight for an eqaliser at the death. And we were at home against a definite relegation rival who hadn't picked up a point before us. We hardly peppered their goal for a winner, think we had something like 6 shots on target. Deserved to win? Maybe. Bossed them, no chance. And Leicester, who basically played badly first half and just stepped up to a normal gear and brushed us aside in te second half.

Maybe if you're looking for unfair results you should turn to our one win this season against newly promted Bournemouth, a team that pretty much played us off the park in the first half and then we began to match them more in the second. If we should have more against Sunderland we equally could gave had less against Bournemouth.

People also say at least we aren't reliant on Benteke as much which is great in principle but just means we actually CAN'T rely on our strikers at the moment. Our midfield will score more goals than our strikers and I doubt that's a good sign!

I take the argument the team needs time to gel but it takes ZERO time to learn how to scrap. There is no excuse for giving up and not fighting for points and that's what this team does constantly. You have to be grinding out draws and wins against the teams we've played or you will be in trouble regardless of the 'better performance' and 'we'll get better over time' arguments. I love how much hope people have that it's just going to click but I don't see it. Can hardly blame injuries yet and relying on youngsters who still have to learn whatever their potential is just the desperate hopes of a beaten down fan base.

I'd rather be playing badly but have more points on the board, than playing our current below average and having very few points on the board! With the games we've played, the manner of our performances, the team 'bottle', the lack of goal threat, the odd substitutions and the reliance on youngsters I just can't see how we won't be fighting relegation this year. I have seen NOTHING to suggest we will. All I've seen is enough to know Grealish and Traore might have enough about them to be sold for a healthy profit next summer.