villa4europe Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 You'd have to stop Versailles IMO you'd completely change the next 25 years of German history, killing hitler would have had a huge impact obviously but it would have resolved nothing Karl Marx is the one for me if you're talking impact from killing someone, can you imagine if communism (or least people's butchered interpretation of Marx's communism) had never been dreamt up? Russian revolution, I'd make a good argument over the nazis coming in to power because of it, the Cold War, Chinese revolution... Maybe the most influential man in the last 100 years of history 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 If you went back in time and killed Hitler to prevent a war, then in the future you'd have no reason to go back in time to kill him, so you wouldn't and so the war would still happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 The seven wonders of the ancient world would be worth a look. It would be interesting to find out more about this... Though that would probably mean picking up some language skills. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 (edited) I don't maybe see a flock of Passenger Pigeons, or Dinosuars and walk on the earth when it's continents were a completely different shape. The Great Library of Alexandria would probably be interesting I wouldn't be able to do much reading so would just have to chill and soak up the atmosphere. Edited September 1, 2015 by useless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meregreen Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I'd go back to the sermon on the mount. I'd listen, then approach him, and if he knew who I was and where I came from, then I'd know. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I think the single biggest turning point in recorded history is Henry VIII marrying Anne Boleyn. * Split Christianity * Everything that then came from the reign of Elizabeth I, which shaped almost everything about the modern world now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I think the single biggest turning point in recorded history is Henry VIII marrying Anne Boleyn. * Split Christianity * Everything that then came from the reign of Elizabeth I, which shaped almost everything about the modern world now. Yes Elizabeth I is an interesting one. That was really the proper organisation of the slave trade. Up until then it looks like it was all a bit ad hoc and small time, but the interest and support of Liz really got it much more professional and started the industrialisation of the process, giving 'us' the advantage over the rest of europe with a ready source of cheap labour in the americas etc.. The rest, is history. I'm not saying 'britain caused the slave trade'. No no. I'm just saying if we hadn't got it organised first then someone else would have and then much more of the world would have a much more Spanish, Portugese or French feel to it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I think the single biggest turning point in recorded history is Henry VIII marrying Anne Boleyn. * Split Christianity * Everything that then came from the reign of Elizabeth I, which shaped almost everything about the modern world now. Yes Elizabeth I is an interesting one. That was really the proper organisation of the slave trade. Up until then it looks like it was all a bit ad hoc and small time, but the interest and support of Liz really got it much more professional and started the industrialisation of the process, giving 'us' the advantage over the rest of europe with a ready source of cheap labour in the americas etc.. The rest, is history. I'm not saying 'britain caused the slave trade'. No no. I'm just saying if we hadn't got it organised first then someone else would have and then much more of the world would have a much more Spanish, Portugese or French feel to it. 17th century was when the European slave traders really got in on the act with the plantations ( Liz died 1603 so not sure how responsible she was ) ... but slavery is as old as civilisation so it's not really fair to even pin it on a European nation .. for the record well over 90 percent of African slaves were imported into the Caribbean and South America. Only about 6 percent of imports went directly to British North America. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 (edited) I was referencing her funding of Sir John Hawkins in the 16th Century. I tried to be clear I wasn't saying we started it or that everything is our fault or attempting to pin it on anyone. For clarity, clearly I wasn't clear enough. *a quick google to refresh my memory and yes, John Hawkins was a proper interesting character, architect of the Armada's defeat and all that. He organised the 'triangle trade', whereby he would get finance for a ship, sail it down towards africa, hijack other ships and steal their slaves, sail across to the americas, sell the stolen slaves and sail back to england with profit for his investors. This would lead to greater investment, bigger ships, more slaves, better sales, more profit.... I'm not being pious here, he got his slaves by nicking them off others. He'd nick portugese slaves and sell them to the spanish. Everyone was in on it. If you lived in Cornwall or Devon you ran the risk of someone else grabbing and enslaving you. We just turned out to be better at it due to our better ability to sniff out a good return and organise credit. No more or less moral than anyone else. Just better at logistics. Edited September 1, 2015 by chrisp65 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I was referencing her funding of Sir John Hawkins in the 16th Century. I tried to be clear I wasn't saying we started it or that everything is our fault or attempting to pin it on anyone. For clarity, clearly I wasn't clear enough. yeah I got that but i was commenting more on the reference that it was ad hoc and small time until we got involved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I was referencing her funding of Sir John Hawkins in the 16th Century. I tried to be clear I wasn't saying we started it or that everything is our fault or attempting to pin it on anyone. For clarity, clearly I wasn't clear enough. yeah I got that but i was commenting more on the reference that it was ad hoc and small time until we got involved well, hopefully I sort of answered it in my edit I'm at the outer edge of my blagging knowledge here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted September 1, 2015 VT Supporter Share Posted September 1, 2015 I think the single biggest turning point in recorded history is Henry VIII marrying Anne Boleyn. * Split Christianity * Everything that then came from the reign of Elizabeth I, which shaped almost everything about the modern world now. Classic Anglocentrism. The Reformation was taking place all over Europe (Martin Luther et al). Protestantism was not invented by an English king. When I was at primary school we were taught that the first man to circumnavigate the world was Sir Francis Drake, and that the printing press was invented by Caxton. No different to Americans thinking that the US Navy captured the first Enigma machine and won the war in North Africa, really. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I think the single biggest turning point in recorded history is Henry VIII marrying Anne Boleyn. * Split Christianity * Everything that then came from the reign of Elizabeth I, which shaped almost everything about the modern world now. Classic Anglocentrism. The Reformation was taking place all over Europe (Martin Luther et al). Protestantism was not invented by an English king. I know. But England being forced into Protestantism and the C of E sped it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted September 1, 2015 VT Supporter Share Posted September 1, 2015 Keith Roberts' sf novel 'Pavane' is a good read on this theme (a 'alternative' world where the Reformation failed and Catholicism held sway). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I think the single biggest turning point in recorded history is Henry VIII marrying Anne Boleyn. * Split Christianity * Everything that then came from the reign of Elizabeth I, which shaped almost everything about the modern world now. Classic Anglocentrism. The Reformation was taking place all over Europe (Martin Luther et al). Protestantism was not invented by an English king. When I was at primary school we were taught that the first man to circumnavigate the world was Sir Francis Drake, and that the printing press was invented by Caxton. No different to Americans thinking that the US Navy captured the first Enigma machine and won the war in North Africa, really. oh is this quiz time ... Magellan and Gutenberg .... do i win though technically Magellan died before the journey ended so he didn't actually make it Keith Roberts' sf novel 'Pavane' is a good read on this theme (a 'alternative' world where the Reformation failed and Catholicism held sway). from memory you used to "hate" what if books ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFC_Hitz Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Dan Carlin did a cracking podcast on Magellan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marka Ragnos Posted September 1, 2015 Author VT Supporter Share Posted September 1, 2015 Can you imagine the huge quantities of change there would have been by killing Hitler? The millions upon millions of those families time lines' would be free to carry on naturally, rather than being inexplicably cut short by an individual persons death. Or that millions of babies born during the war wouldn't have been born because the procreation between two completely different people from different cultures didn't happen. Or the technologies invented BECAUSE of the war weren't created because there was no need for them. The world would be almost unrecognisable as we know it, culturally and physically. I'm not sure I would change WW2 happening more so than any other war. If whatever I did, did affect thhte future, the predicable outcome of the event I could affect would have to have a predicable outcome, otherwise I wouldn't touch that event/decision. But then what if Stalin had invaded Poland, conquered Germany and nuked London? I'm not sure killing Hitler would have solved Europe's problems in the 20th century, it was on the road to oblivion long before he became the guy who lit the blue touch paper. Germany was going to shit anyway. What if someone who could actually win a war had stepped into Hitler's shoes and now we were all living under Nazi rule? I tend the think the Holocaust might still have occurred, even without Adolf. German antisemitism was a kind of national epidemic for decades before WW2. The German people were absolutely addicted to the hatred of Jews. It almost defined German nationhood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marka Ragnos Posted September 1, 2015 Author VT Supporter Share Posted September 1, 2015 You'd have to stop Versailles IMO you'd completely change the next 25 years of German history, killing hitler would have had a huge impact obviously but it would have resolved nothing Karl Marx is the one for me if you're talking impact from killing someone, can you imagine if communism (or least people's butchered interpretation of Marx's communism) had never been dreamt up? Russian revolution, I'd make a good argument over the nazis coming in to power because of it, the Cold War, Chinese revolution... Maybe the most influential man in the last 100 years of history Ah, but something would have happened in Russia, Marx or no Marx -- it was just too oppressive and unfair. The Bolshies lit the fuse, but the fuse was already there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marka Ragnos Posted September 1, 2015 Author VT Supporter Share Posted September 1, 2015 If you went back in time and killed Hitler to prevent a war, then in the future you'd have no reason to go back in time to kill him, so you wouldn't and so the war would still happen. Ah yes, you can't kill off HItler without raising the perrenial grandfather paradox ... A variant of the grandfather paradox is the Hitler paradox or Hitler's murder paradox, a fairly frequent trope in science fiction, in which the protagonist travels back in time to murder Adolf Hitler before he can instigate World War II. Rather than necessarily physically preventing time travel, the action removes any reason for the travel, along with any knowledge that the reason ever existed, thus removing any point in travelling in time in the first place. Additionally, the consequences of Hitler's existence are so monumental and all-encompassing that for anyone born after the war, it is likely that their birth was influenced in some way by its effects, and thus the grandfather paradox would directly apply in some way. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I remember reading that even if time travel was possible it would be impossible to change history. The example that was given was that if you wanted to prevent yourself from ever being born, so went back in time and killed your Grandfather. It wouldn't work because if you were never born you couldn't go back in time to kill anyone and so you'd be born after all. this reminded me of Futurama where Fry goes back to 1947 and becomes his own Grandfather 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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