Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership - TTIP

[blandy]

21 minutes ago, Xann said:

Grauniad [ TTIP is a very bad excuse to vote for Brexit ]

I think it's the most compelling of reasons to vote leave, personally, rather than an "excuse". Never mind all this gibberish about "ooh nasty foriners comin over here and doin' our jobs and stealing our houses and we pay them millions" crap. Secret deals, for secret courts and secret changes to laws that protect us, all conducted by big business and lobbyists away from the scrutiny of even the people we elect to govern the EU. It's shockingly rotten.

[Awol]

14 hours ago, blandy said:

I think it's the most compelling of reasons to vote leave, personally, rather than an "excuse". Never mind all this gibberish about "ooh nasty foriners comin over here and doin' our jobs and stealing our houses and we pay them millions" crap. Secret deals, for secret courts and secret changes to laws that protect us, all conducted by big business and lobbyists away from the scrutiny of even the people we elect to govern the EU. It's shockingly rotten.

Obviously you felt the need to make this point strongly  and FWIW you're dead on imo.

Where the Graniuad is dead wrong is stating that Brexit makes TTIP more likely for the UK. Obama made it very clear that TTIP is for a regional block which we will have just exited and we'll be at the back of the queue... Even if Washington and London tried to extend it to the UK then our Gov would have to negotiate separately from the EU, and without concealment from scrutiny the EU provides, the aggressive UK press (feeding a now politically engaged UK population) would force greater disclosure, imo. If we leave then our trade relationships are actually going to be on the radar again in a way they haven't been for 45 years. It's also worth mentioning that having just left the EU probably wouldn't be keen on giving UK a potential back door into the single market. 

TTIP and TTP are intended to entrench US economic hegemony over as many developed countries as possible to the exclusion of the rising powers. If UK was also outside these blocks we would become an important financial lynch pin for these countries, as the recent deal to make London the international hub for Chinese Renminbi business indicates. The US was furious when UK became a founding member of the new Asian Infrastructure & Investment Bank because they know we are maneuvering to facilitate and benefit from China's rise. Remaining cemented in western defence relationships while opening up to eastern economic relationships would be a shrewd, well hedged strategy for the UK. 

     

 

[mockingbird_franklin]

The biggest mistake anyone can make about TTIP is to think it's a trade agreement, 

[darrenm]

I'm definitely pro EU but even I'm considering Brexit if it can in any way help the UK avoid TTIP.

Way to go Obama!

[troon_villan]

Not TTIP, but TPP (Trans-Pacific Partnership), which is basically the same thing but for North America and Asia. New Zealand Economy minister Stephen Joyce faced some slightly unhappy members of the public after his government ratified the treaty this week:

Yep, that's an enormous dildo to the face. Got to compliment the accuracy there. 

Just came in to like and quote. Notice it hits a tit on the way down.

[Awol]

26 minutes ago, darrenm said:

I'm definitely pro EU but even I'm considering Brexit if it can in any way help the UK avoid TTIP.

This is one of the few clear facts to come out of the debate so far, Brexit = no TTIP. Barry O' couldn't have been clearer on that. 

Article below is interesting:

TTIP: UK Govt report shows corporations have sued Canadian Govt for over $2bn, Obama claims 'Did Not Happen'

 

Quote

 

A report commissioned by the British government reveals that major U.S. corporates have sued the Canadian government for billions of dollars under a clause of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA). Despite this, U.S. President Barack Obama told a press conference in Germany this weekend (above) that “none of these [corporate law suits] had happened with the many trade agreements that currently exist”.

Speaking on the Trans-Atlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) in a question and answer session alongside Germany Chancellor Angela Merkel on Sunday, President Obama specifically made reference to the Investor-State Dispute Settlement clause of TTIP, which is causing consternation across Europe for fears of U.S. companies suing national governments across Europe.

He said: “The issue of dispute settlement is something that has gained a lot of attention and attraction among those who generally oppose trade agreements.  Keep in mind that the vast majority of trade agreements already contain such dispute resolution mechanisms. And the terrible scenarios that are painted in which suddenly corporations are going around suing countries so that they are not able to enforce their public health laws, or their financial regulations, or their environmental laws — none of these things had happened with the many trade agreements that currently exist, and that Germany and the United States and the EU and others are already a party to. So I think it’s important for us to look at the facts and not a bunch of hypothetical pronouncements.”

But a report from 2013 reveals that U.S. corporates up until 2013 have sued the Canadian government for up to $2 billion and that the UK “would be more prone to US claims than Canada”.

These suits were brought against the Canadian tax payer for issues such as governmental bans on additives, denial of licences, and the U.S. Postal Service even sued the Canadian postal service for “anti-competitive practices”. In practice, the same kind of suit could be brought against Britain’s National Health Service (NHS), as being government-run makes it an effective monopoly and therefore “anti-competitive”. 

More on link

Perhaps unsurprisingly there is a big grass roots push in Canada against joining TPP.

Edit to add the top rated comment on above article: "I'm beginning to suspect that the "nutters" who say that there is a global conspiracy between the "elites" or "establishment" may not be as nutty as we thought."

I'm firmly with the nutters on this (queue the obvious incoming...) and it's those same elites who are behind the increasingly shrill and doom laden international push back against Brexit. Post-war democracy was never supposed to be used by the people to look after their own interests, but we can literally explode the corporate/big capital agenda without firing a shot by simply walking away from the EU cartel (hat tip, Yanis Varoufakis)and with it, TTIP. More will follow us if UK leads the way out.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Awol

[mockingbird_franklin]

more on US corporations and the use of ISDS from the article below

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/us-firms-could-make-billions-from-uk-via-secret-tribunals-9785924.html

ISDS actions: Controversial cases

* US tobacco multinational Philip Morris sued Australia over new rules demanding plain packaging for cigarettes, and Uruguay for printing health warnings on them.

* Ecuador was sued by  US oil giant Occidental  Petroleum after it stripped the company of the rights to explore for oil. Ecuador claimed Occidental was in breach of contract but the World Bank arbitrators ruled in favour of the company.

* Poland and Slovakia were both sued by private health and insurance providers when they attempted to reverse some of the privatisations of their healthcare systems.

* New Zealand withdrew laws on plain packaging after the Philip Morris case, while Canada revoked a ban on hazardous waste exports to the US because of fears it could face an ISDS claim.

The Occidental one was for $1.8 billion.

Edited April 28, 2016 by mockingbird_franklin

[HanoiVillan]

25 minutes ago, troon_villan said:

Just came in to like and quote. Notice it hits a tit on the way down.

Dildo got taste. 

[troon_villan]

Dildo got taste. 

Bounces right off it. A firm one indeed.

[darrenm]

Hate to burst your bubble guys but it just misses the tit and hits a rib. The (pert) tit doesn't flinch.

[Xann]

Quote

Talks for a free trade deal between Europe and the US face a serious impasse with “irreconcilable” differences in some areas, according to leaked negotiating texts.

The two sides are also at odds over US demands that would require the EU to break promises it has made on environmental protection.

President Obama said last week he was confident a deal could be reached. But the leaked negotiating drafts and internal positions, which were obtained by Greenpeace and seen by the Guardian, paint a very different picture.

“Discussions on cosmetics remain very difficult and the scope of common objectives fairly limited,” says one internal note by EU trade negotiators. Because of a European ban on animal testing, “the EU and US approaches remain irreconcilable and EU market access problems will therefore remain,” the note says.

Talks on engineering were also “characterised by continuous reluctance on the part of the US to engage in this sector,” the confidential briefing says.

Grauniad

[Rodders]

https://www.ttip-leaks.org/ all available here if you fancy it. I haven't read through them yet myself, looks like a nice weeks worth of reading there :/

Quote

Greenpeace Netherlands has released secret TTIP negotiation documents. We have done so to provide much needed transparency and trigger an informed debate on the treaty. This treaty is threatening to have far reaching implications for the environment and the lives of more than 800 million citizens in the EU and US.

Whether you care about environmental issues, animal welfare, labour rights or internet privacy, you should be concerned about what is in these leaked documents. They underline the strong objections civil society and millions of people around the world have voiced: TTIP is about a huge transfer of power from people to big business.

You can download all the documents below, as a whole and per chapter.

 

[Xann]

Enter the deal breakers.

Quote

 

Doubts rise over TTIP as France threatens to block EU-US deal

French president rejects trade pact in current form as lead negotiator blames Washington for impasse a day after leak revealed ‘irreconcilable’ differences

 

The French were always likely to dig their heels in.

Grauniad

[villaglint]

The whole French derailment shoots a hole in the argument that leaving the EU would save us from TTIP.

It always seemed an odd argument because the likes of Tories have always been strongly in favour of it so if we left we would probably get the same or something even worse as we wouldn't have the traditionally more socially conscious continental Europe to hold parts of it back.

I agree it's ridiculous to rely on other countries like that but in this instance it's true.

To vote to leave EU because you don't like TTIP seems like odd reasoning to me.

[blandy]

45 minutes ago, villaglint said:

To vote to leave EU because you don't like TTIP seems like odd reasoning to me.

Kind of. I'm glad that all the people protesting and complaining to MPs MEPs etc. has seemingly worked.

But still TTIP does reveal how detached from reality the EU bodies have become. (Your point about Cameron being as bad, if not worse is fair).

[villaglint]

Kind of. I'm glad that all the people protesting and complaining to MPs MEPs etc. has seemingly worked.

But still TTIP does reveal how detached from reality the EU bodies have become. (Your point about Cameron being as bad, if not worse is fair).

Agreed but you could exchange EU bodies for a lot of different organisations/governments in that sentence. The beast of modern connected economies controls individual governments these days rather than the other way around.

The only way to change these things is through co-ordinated agreement through bodies like the EU which granted hasn't covered itself in glory on this occasion. Or maybe it has through France.

That does of course presume you want to change anything in the first place which when it comes to TTIP the UK doesn't so it's all a bit of a mute point.

[blandy]

56 minutes ago, villaglint said:

Or maybe it has through France.

I suspect in this case, not.

France (Hollande) has come out with his "non" because he's about as popular as an unpopular thing. he's done it to win votes/support, because he knows the little people like us (or our French cousins) think TTIP is merde. But there has been massive opposition to it and every time something else comes out about it, that opposition has grown.

1 hour ago, villaglint said:

That does of course presume you want to change anything in the first place which when it comes to TTIP the UK doesn't

The tories don't. But the tories are not "the UK".

[villakram]

Irish MEP visits the TTIP reading room... freedom!