snowychap Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 35 minutes ago, blandy said: It's untrue because the Windows and Microsoft T&Cs say: ... As per the link to their privacy statement, they also inform people that they'll access, disclose and preserve your personal data when they have a good faith belief that doing so is necessary to ... and what follows is pretty much a catch all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted June 7, 2016 Moderator Share Posted June 7, 2016 20 minutes ago, snowychap said: As per the link to their privacy statement, they also inform people that they'll access, disclose and preserve your personal data when they have a good faith belief that doing so is necessary to ... and what follows is pretty much a catch all. To a degree - similar to all the others, again. And as with the others, the disclosure to the "authorities" is something they fought. The other stuff - the advertising related aspects - again, like Google, and people can opt out. It's most definitely not "stealing and owning" our content. It's more than a lot of people (including me) are really comfortable with and it's in essence the price "we" pay for the "free" cloud services etc. https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-GB/privacystatement Quote We share your personal data with your consent or as necessary to complete any transaction or provide any service that you have requested or authorised. We also share data with Microsoft-controlled affiliates and subsidiaries; with vendors working on our behalf; when required by law or to respond to legal process; to protect our customers; to protect lives; to maintain the security of our services; and to protect the rights or property of Microsoft.... You can view or edit your personal data online for many Microsoft services. You can also make choices about Microsoft’s collection and use of your data... Since early 2013, Microsoft has published a Law Enforcement Requests Report twice yearly detailing the legal demands for customer data we receive from law enforcement agencies around the world. We believe it is important for the public to have access to this information about law enforcement access to customer data...... In early 2014, following a lawsuit against the U.S. government, Microsoft and other tech companies secured permission to publish some information about governmental demands for customer data through legal orders issued pursuant to U.S. national security laws, such as the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA).... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 3 minutes ago, blandy said: https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-GB/privacystatement As you've read through the T&Cs (more than just those quoted), I don't know why you think that I haven't or are intent on quoting parts of it in a response to my post that are not in response to my post, i.e. something just related to law enforcement and ads. It's not just about 'law enforcement' requests (or warrants perhaps - to tie it in with the debate on data collection that is happening currently about the Investigatory Powers Bill) or about advertising, they will also do so when they have a good faith belief that it's necessary to protect their customers, maintain their security and protect the rights of Microsoft (so pretty much any time they want and likely only challengeable either in retrospect or, perhaps, by some sort of governmental/supragovernmental body). I can't see where you can opt out of this (it would be bizarre if you could) or where there is an exhaustive list of what they regard as personal data (they give two examples, the content of emails on Outlook.com or the content of files in private folders on OneDrive) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted June 7, 2016 Moderator Share Posted June 7, 2016 25 minutes ago, snowychap said: As you've read through the T&Cs (more than just those quoted), I don't know why you think that I haven't or are intent on quoting parts of it in a response to my post that are not in response to my post, i.e. something just related to law enforcement and ads. It's not just about 'law enforcement' requests (or warrants perhaps - to tie it in with the debate on data collection that is happening currently about the Investigatory Powers Bill) or about advertising, they will also do so when they have a good faith belief that it's necessary to protect their customers, maintain their security and protect the rights of Microsoft (so pretty much any time they want and likely only challengeable either in retrospect or, perhaps, by some sort of governmental/supragovernmental body). I can't see where you can opt out of this (it would be bizarre if you could) or where there is an exhaustive list of what they regard as personal data (they give two examples, the content of emails on Outlook.com or the content of files in private folders on OneDrive) . I have no idea if you've read the T&Cs - you've not quoted any of them or said either way, so why would I think you have/haven't ? I couldn't give a damn either way. My point all along is that Microsoft are not stealing people's content. They don't own it. As I understand it, the nature of the services that Microsoft and Apple and Google provide means that it is unavoidable they will have access to our data and that they (as they all say) may need to protect themselves from attacks and to protect their own Intellectual Property rights from would be ne'er do wells in China or the USA or wherever. All that is fair and reasonable. I can see absolutely no evidence that they make any claim to anyone's data as their's (Microsoft's) or that they will pass it on (apart from for valid reasons as stated). It's a total red herring IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted June 7, 2016 Administrator Share Posted June 7, 2016 Pete, It think you are missing the point about consent. Windows 10 is enrolling people into these conditions without consent. The other services you list require consent. Quote "because Windows is personal to you, we give you choices about the personal data we collect and how we use it." While it's lovely that they give choices, it would be nice if they gave users control and the ability to be forgotten. They only give choices to a subset of the data they collect. Several posters in this thread have linked the sites containing the additional (continually changing) steps you have to take to keep up with the snooping Microsoft don't give you choices about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ender4 Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 5 hours ago, limpid said: When they are prepared to do something like this to you, why would you continue using their products at all? You are now subject to their stealing and owning all of your content. I don't understand how that can be acceptable to anyone. what's my alternative options though? I buy a laptop with pre-installed software, including Windows. I simply want a computer that works when i need it to work... go on internet, use Excel, store some files on the hard drive, all without any effort or hassle. i don't want to have to install different operating systems or have things not work at first attempt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted June 7, 2016 Moderator Share Posted June 7, 2016 13 minutes ago, limpid said: Pete, It think you are missing the point about consent. Windows 10 is enrolling people into these conditions without consent. I completely and utterly agree that putting the windows 10 on anyone's machine without consent is wrong. That's not what I was commenting on, though. I've nothing to add there. I agree with the other people who've said how bad that is. The conditions themselves are (to me) not a problem and I was trying to put across that I don't think the stuff about personal data and the way it's handled by Microsoft is basically significantly different to other big tech companies - that I don't think there's any data theft involved, or any loss of rights over our own "content". The way they make it difficult to opt out of various "defaults" is also bad no argument there. I don't like Microsoft or their software (excel's alright, I suppose) or their business practices or the way they've done this Win10 updating, but they're not "stealing" our data to "own" it for themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, blandy said: I have no idea if you've read the T&Cs - you've not quoted any of them or said either way 4 hours ago, snowychap said: As per the link to their privacy statement, they also inform people that they'll access, disclose and preserve your personal data when they have a good faith belief that doing so is necessary to ... and what follows is pretty much a catch all. 2 hours ago, blandy said: I can see absolutely no evidence that ...they will pass it on (apart from for valid reasons as stated). Other than to Microsoft-controlled affiliates and subsidiaries? Or vendors or agents working on their behalf? Again, I see no opt-out for either of those. Edited June 7, 2016 by snowychap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted June 7, 2016 Administrator Share Posted June 7, 2016 3 hours ago, ender4 said: what's my alternative options though? I buy a laptop with pre-installed software, including Windows. I simply want a computer that works when i need it to work... go on internet, use Excel, store some files on the hard drive, all without any effort or hassle. i don't want to have to install different operating systems or have things not work at first attempt. Chromebooks (Chromebox, Chromebit) would seem to be the obvious choice for most users. They have their own thread. Cheaper than Windows laptops and you don't need to pay for anti-virus, anti-malware or to have it re-installed when you get infected. Not much use for your current machine, but worth looking at next time you are purchasing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted June 8, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted June 8, 2016 Chromebooks are the tits. Unless you want the laptop to either play games (as in proper video games, not browser games) or do a lot of office work, then they're a great choice. Mine cost £250 almost 2 years ago and it's still good as new and I have no intention or reason to even think about replacing it yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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