The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[darrenm]

When will they realise that it's their politics that's the problem, not the person.

In the year 2021 with the 24/7 instant consumption of everything culture, people talking about being sensible and sorting out the public finances is just not going to cut it.

Remove Starmer, elect David Miliband - same thing. Boring centrism where there's no vote left. 

People wrongly (IMO) think that 2019 was a rejection of policies like free broadband and 2 billion trees. It wasn't. It was a continuation of the trend of the last 2 decades which hadn't been able to be bucked like it was in 2017 because that energy had been used once. I'm fairly sure Cummings knew exactly what he was doing making Johnson call the election for winter. Also the antisemitism crisis explored in depth by the BBC daily and the split of brexit leavers away with brexit remainers focusing all their discontent on the left for not being 100% remain chipped away.

That's the problem with the Labour Party. It's a football. It gets kicked around. People like to talk and argue about it. So naturally it's going to be whatever negative people want to project onto it. Unless those who want to lead the party start making their own headlines, it'll continue to sink into greater irrelevance. 

[bickster]

26 minutes ago, darrenm said:

When will they realise that it's their politics that's the problem, not the person.

Probably about the same time the left realises that their policies aren't what the general population wants and that all the infighting keeps the Tories in power

[darrenm]

20 minutes ago, bickster said:

Probably about the same time the left realises that their policies aren't what the general population wants and that all the infighting keeps the Tories in power

Sorry that's simply not correct

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/11/12/labour-economic-policies-are-popular-so-why-arent-

Quote

Economic competence, Jeremy Corbyn and Brexit could all be bigger negatives for Labour than their policies are a positive
As the election campaign ramps up parties are sketching out their manifestos. As YouGov has previously shown, Labour policies are often very popular among the public, and the results of a new study on recent policy announcements confirms this.

 

[HanoiVillan]

2 hours ago, Jareth said:

Did not realise the David Miliband camp / right - were behind the voting change in the first place - 

Although the current “one member, one vote” arrangements are often described as being brought in by Ed Miliband, they were in fact a reaction to his election as the “wrong” Miliband due to the union vote in the party’s electoral college. It was thought that the party membership, who had supported David Miliband, would be a more reliable source of votes for the “right” (in both senses) candidate in future. To make this process even more certain, voting was opened up to “registered supporters”, who were seen as being more sensible than activist members who might still tend towards the left.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/23/labour-needs-to-find-a-way-to-connect-with-voters

Can this lot screw things up any more than they have already? When will they get the message that their candidates have nothing to offer? Wes Streeting being lined up as we speak - for real. 

Correct. The assumption was that by reducing the power of the unions, they would be in control of the selection process. The Corbyn victory didn't happen because of OMOV anyway, it happened because of a] £3 memberships (an E Miliband innovation), and b] non-left members of the parliamentary party giving him their nominating signatures out of pity/in the interests of a 'broad debate/delete as you like.

OMOV probably does now favour the left, because Corbyn's leadership brought a lot of new members who haven't all left yet, despite the current leadership's efforts. It does not provide a lock for the left, because as we have seen one failure mode is that someone can campaign as accepting various left policy strands, and then immediately pull off their mask and go 'lol only kidding back to Blair you idiots'. The move against OMOV is perhaps a reflection that by its nature, that's kind of a one-time trick.

[bickster]

28 minutes ago, darrenm said:

Sorry that's simply not correct

The 2017 and 2019 General Elections prove otherwise Darren

[bobzy]

Just now, bickster said:

The 2017 and 2019 General Elections prove otherwise Darren

I actually think Darren is correct on policies.

I don't think many people care about them when it comes to voting.  Certainly, a lot of people do care what's being offered, but the majority probably don't.  They'll have their roots firmly entrenched or just be voting based on the party leader in some regard.

My parents are intelligent people and I'd probably describe both of them as slightly-left-of-centre.  They would agree with a lot of Labour policies - though my Dad says he's "pro-capitalism", he's basically a massive softie otherwise and would want what's best for "the country".  What he does have is a very tainted view of unions actions in the Red Robbo days.  He always worked in the car industry and says that unions basically destroyed the work ethic in the factories.  This is all before my time so I basically have very little clue and nothing to really offer in more detail on that.

What I do know is that he has vouched to never vote Labour.  This is because of actions some 40/50(?) years ago and nothing to do with policies that are currently in place.

My Mum would also agree with a lot of Labour policies.  She tends to vote based on the local MP and what they'll do that appeals to her.  It tends to align with maybe more "green" policies but I think she's voted for the Lib Dem candidate for the last however long.  Apparently she's a lovely person and really caring and whatnot so my Mum thinks she's great.

 

So as an incredibly small sample size, here are two people who would align to Labour policies but absolutely won't be voting for Labour.

[OutByEaster?]

 

 

[HanoiVillan]

20 minutes ago, bobzy said:

I don't think many people care about them when it comes to voting.  Certainly, a lot of people do care what's being offered, but the majority probably don't.  They'll have their roots firmly entrenched or just be voting based on the party leader in some regard.

I think this is right. It seems like people have a complicated relationship to policies, in that they *can* be important, but not always in predictable ways, and being against a particular policy can be just as motivating, if not more so, than being for one. The relationship definitely isn't as simple as 'I agree with Party A about Issue Z therefore I will vote for Party A'.

Edited September 24, 2021 by HanoiVillan

[blandy]

54 minutes ago, darrenm said:

Sorry that's simply not correct

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/11/12/labour-economic-policies-are-popular-so-why-arent-

Economic competence, Jeremy Corbyn and Brexit could all be bigger negatives for Labour than their policies are a positive
 

If that analysis by YouGov is right, then the things Labour would be needing to concentrate on would be a kind of clean break demonstration of difference from Jeremy Corbyn and the things and people closely associated with him, with re-assuring the general public that they aren't about to hammer business and the economy and they'd need to accept and show they've accepted that Brexit has been done and is over.

I wonder if they've been doing any of those things?

[bickster]

23 minutes ago, bobzy said:

I actually think Darren is correct on policies.

I don't think many people care about them when it comes to voting.  Certainly, a lot of people do care what's being offered, but the majority probably don't.  They'll have their roots firmly entrenched or just be voting based on the party leader in some regard.

My parents are intelligent people and I'd probably describe both of them as slightly-left-of-centre.  They would agree with a lot of Labour policies - though my Dad says he's "pro-capitalism", he's basically a massive softie otherwise and would want what's best for "the country".  What he does have is a very tainted view of unions actions in the Red Robbo days.  He always worked in the car industry and says that unions basically destroyed the work ethic in the factories.  This is all before my time so I basically have very little clue and nothing to really offer in more detail on that.

What I do know is that he has vouched to never vote Labour.  This is because of actions some 40/50(?) years ago and nothing to do with policies that are currently in place.

My Mum would also agree with a lot of Labour policies.  She tends to vote based on the local MP and what they'll do that appeals to her.  It tends to align with maybe more "green" policies but I think she's voted for the Lib Dem candidate for the last however long.  Apparently she's a lovely person and really caring and whatnot so my Mum thinks she's great.

 

So as an incredibly small sample size, here are two people who would align to Labour policies but absolutely won't be voting for Labour.

I wouldn't disagree with that but that comes also to the infighting and competency argument. Labour's infighting is a huge turn-off. I agree that there are also many people who don't like the Unions and that Union link will always put them off but that has put them off for at least 40 years so those aren't the votes that Labour needs to regain

[HanoiVillan]

20 minutes ago, bickster said:

I wouldn't disagree with that but that comes also to the infighting and competency argument. Labour's infighting is a huge turn-off. I agree that there are also many people who don't like the Unions and that Union link will always put them off but that has put them off for at least 40 years so those aren't the votes that Labour needs to regain

Yes, discussions like this do need to be based around the fact that there are 50% of the electorate who will never ever vote Labour no matter what; the challenge is to win elections without them, which is hard but not impossible.

[MessiWillSignForVilla]

He's gonna be gone soon surely? He's had an absolute car crash of a week, how can he have any credibility left in the party?

I wanted Starmer to become leader with the hope of him bringing the key policies of Corbyn but with some decent leadership and competence, but he's shown this week that he's got **** all of the last two.

[HanoiVillan]

The measures might still pass yet, so I'm not getting too excited.

 

[Jareth]

It was called out as a reckless or desperate move and now it has proven so - surely it puts it to bed at least until the friendlier unions can consult their members as that is what they stated needs doing. Hopefully that's long enough for Starmer to lose some more credibility, he hardly began the conference with a strong hand, it might have been their only shot - hence the rush to do it. 

[HanoiVillan]

17 minutes ago, Jareth said:

It was called out as a reckless or desperate move and now it has proven so - surely it puts it to bed at least until the friendlier unions can consult their members as that is what they stated needs doing. Hopefully that's long enough for Starmer to lose some more credibility, he hardly began the conference with a strong hand, it might have been their only shot - hence the rush to do it. 

Apparently he might still be able to ram it through the NEC meeting tomorrow morning, though I guess it would be easier if he just ditched the electoral college part and stuck with the 'making it harder to trigger ballot MPs' part and the 'fewer policy votes at conference' part.

[Jareth]

6 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

Apparently he might still be able to ram it through the NEC meeting tomorrow morning, though I guess it would be easier if he just ditched the electoral college part and stuck with the 'making it harder to trigger ballot MPs' part and the 'fewer policy votes at conference' part.

These guys are making some shit decisions - wouldn't be surprised to see them try anyway, they look that desperate . I hope they've blown it. They're either crap at this or clearing a path for the 'next' leader - can't tell which.

[dAVe80]

Dispatches from Labour Party Conference - Day 1

Decent journey down to Brighton, but the seats on the LNER Zuma trains are terrible. Met up with some North East delegates at St Pancras, and had a bit of crack on the way down. Talking football with a Newcastle fan, and he was telling me about two lads he used to work with. One was Villa, one was sha. He used to stop with them when he came to Birmingham for the match. He was telling me about his favourite pub, but he couldn't remember what it was called. We worked out eventually that it was probably the Witton Arms, after naming every pub that ever existed between town and Aston, in the past 30 years. 

Arrived in Brighton and it was sunny and warm, unlike the frozen north. Never been before, and I'm sorry to be a lad, but given the reputation this place has, I was struck how many attractive young ladies were around. 

Got to my hotel, went and got my passes. Had a chat with a taxi driver who asked me if I knew why everywhere was so busy? Told him, and unprompted he started telling me he doesn't like Keef, and he's been too quiet during covid. I didn't stop him.

President of my union took us out for dinner, which was very nice of her. Had a good chat with her about the miners in the Rhondda, and the North East. I invited her to the Durham Miner's Gala. 

Back in my digs, which are canny, but the bar was shut. I'm catching up on FB, WhatsApp, emails, and of course VT. 

Kicks off properly tomorrow, let's see what happens. 

Edited September 25, 2021 by dAVe80

[HanoiVillan]

22 minutes ago, Jareth said:

These guys are making some shit decisions - wouldn't be surprised to see them try anyway, they look that desperate . I hope they've blown it. They're either crap at this or clearing a path for the 'next' leader - can't tell which.

It is indeed a bit of a mystery why LOTO is pursuing this *right now*, when he's only been in office 18 months and we're at least 18 months from an election. I don't think he's getting ready to hand over though, my guess would be that he thinks it's unpopular and therefore wants to try to ram it through in the middle of the parliament with not many people paying attention. Problem is he doesn't seem to have done the preparatory spadework; he hasn't given the people who want to defend him a plausible line they can go into battle behind.

[dAVe80]

7 hours ago, dAVe80 said:

Dispatches from Labour Party Conference - Day 1

Decent journey down to Brighton, but the seats on the LNER Zuma trains are terrible. Met up with some North East delegates at St Pancras, and had a bit of crack on the way down. Talking football with a Newcastle fan, and he was telling me about two lads he used to work with. One was Villa, one was sha. He used to stop with them when he came to Birmingham for the match. He was telling me about his favourite pub, but he couldn't remember what it was called. We worked out eventually that it was probably the Witton Arms, after naming every pub that ever existed between town and Aston, in the past 30 years. 

Arrived in Brighton and it was sunny and warm, unlike the frozen north. Never been before, and I'm sorry to be a lad, but given the reputation this place has, I was struck how many attractive young ladies were around. 

Got to my hotel, went and got my passes. Had a chat with a taxi driver who asked me if I knew why everywhere was so busy? Told him, and unprompted he started telling me he doesn't like Keef, and he's been too quiet during covid. I didn't stop him.

President of my uni took us out for dinner, which was very nice of her. Had a good chat with her about the miners in the Rhondda, and the North East. I invited her to the Durham Miner's Gala. 

Back in my digs, which are canny, but the bar was shut. I'm catching up on FB, WhatsApp, emails, and of course VT. 

Kicks off properly tomorrow, let's see what happens. 

Oh supplement to this, I spotted Andy McDonald walking about, with a sizable minder. I'm not sure why, I always thought he was actually a pretty decent MP, so unlikely to get any crap. Also most people will have no idea who he is even. 

Also spotted Luke Akehurst.

[HanoiVillan]

As far as I can see, this is what the NEC are debating this morning:

New plans include:

• Increasing MP nomination threshold from 10% of MPs to 25%
• Scrapping registered supporters
• Freeze date for new members in leadership elections
• Fewer conference motions
• Harder (impossible) trigger ballots

The key here is the first one, which makes it simly impossible for there to be another leader from the left of the party, but which might also not win favour with unions as each union will have an example of a candidate they preferred in a recent leadership election who wouldn't have won the ballot. Anyway, we'll see what happens.