Jareth Posted September 21, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted September 21, 2021 1 minute ago, blandy said: Which ones and why has he done it? Has anything changed since he made them? Reason I ask is I genuinely don't know which ones, and secondly, just hypothetically, the state of the economy is completely different because of Covid - so if it were me, there would be some things that would kind of slip down or off the list and others that would need to get added. AFAIK Starmer is yet to commit to any single one of those policies (albeit other shadow cab have) - but has publicly stated that he may have to go in a different direction to them in order to do what's most important and win elections. He is proving himself as being able and willing to 'do what it takes' every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted September 21, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted September 21, 2021 Just now, blandy said: Would you say that people who aren't the angry dicks are nevertheless being kind of rabble roused by the angry dicks? and would you share my view that the anger directed at Starmer might be better directed at the actual Tories doing the proper bad stuff? They've always sought to amplify anything and everything and try to stir it up - I consider myself moderate and saw during Corbyn's era through the usual suspects like The Canary for being the shit-stirrers they are. So using myself as an example I am solely annoyed at having voted for a leader who says one thing but does the complete opposite. I and I assume many others saw the increased democracy in the party as being a positive, but I know the PLP only saw the opposite. So the rift, we are witnessing right now is about broken promises, and many who want to evolve and move politics forward (PR for one - backed by 83% of members) and those in the traditional power structure of Labour who want to control the lot and are still deluded in thinking they can win the old way. Rather than radical lefties Vs Blairites. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted September 21, 2021 Moderator Share Posted September 21, 2021 1 minute ago, Jareth said: Starmer is yet to commit to any single one of those policies (albeit other shadow cab have) That's not (yet) "rowed back on his 10 pledges" really then? I mean I suspect he will and will have to, like I say the world and economy has changed. I've just looked at them and annotated Quote Based on the moral case for socialism, here is where I stand. 1. Economic justice Increase income tax for the top 5% of earners, reverse the Tories’ cuts in corporation tax and clamp down on tax avoidance, particularly of large corporations. No stepping back from our core principles. Can't do this until in Government. "Core Principles" is kind of weasel words - it can mean whatever the reader wants it to mean. 2. Social justice Abolish Universal Credit and end the Tories’ cruel sanctions regime. Set a national goal for wellbeing to make health as important as GDP; Invest in services that help shift to a preventative approach. Stand up for universal services and defend our NHS. Support the abolition of tuition fees and invest in lifelong learning. Can't do this until in Government. 3. Climate justice Put the Green New Deal at the heart of everything we do. There is no issue more important to our future than the climate emergency. A Clean Air Act to tackle pollution locally. Demand international action on climate rights .Can't do this until in Government. 4. Promote peace and human rights No more illegal wars. Introduce a Prevention of Military Intervention Act and put human rights at the heart of foreign policy. Review all UK arms sales and make us a force for international peace and justice. Can't do this until in Government. 5. Common ownership Public services should be in public hands, not making profits for shareholders. Support common ownership of rail, mail, energy and water; end outsourcing in our NHS, local government and justice system. Can't do this until in Government. 6. Defend migrants’ rights Full voting rights for EU nationals. Defend free movement as we leave the EU. An immigration system based on compassion and dignity. End indefinite detention and call for the closure of centres such as Yarl’s Wood. Can't do this until in Government. Some signs of a weakening of this one/overtaken by events (we've left the EU, free movement has gone under the tories). 7. Strengthen workers’ rights and trade unions Work shoulder to shoulder with trade unions to stand up for working people, tackle insecure work and low pay. Repeal the Trade Union Act. Oppose Tory attacks on the right to take industrial action and the weakening of workplace rights. Can't do this until in Government. Some signs of a weakening of this one? 8. Radical devolution of power, wealth and opportunity Push power, wealth and opportunity away from Whitehall. A federal system to devolve powers – including through regional investment banks and control over regional industrial strategy. Abolish the House of Lords – replace it with an elected chamber of regions and nations. Can't do this until in Government. 9. Equality Pull down obstacles that limit opportunities and talent. We are the party of the Equal Pay Act, Sure Start, BAME representation and the abolition of Section 28 – we must build on that for a new decade. Can't do this until in Government. 10. Effective opposition to the Tories Forensic, effective opposition to the Tories in Parliament – linked up to our mass membership and a professional election operation. Never lose sight of the votes ‘lent’ to the Tories in 2019. Unite our party, promote pluralism and improve our culture. Robust action to eradicate the scourge of antisemitism. Maintain our collective links with the unions. Mixed results. How much is down to him and how much down to factors outside his control is for debate I think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted September 21, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted September 21, 2021 Gavin Barwell's book seems to suggest that Starmer's position on Brexit under the Great Satan resulted in a hard Brexit (Sharjah the wishes of the leadership), which Ashcroft takes further into suggesting his position was used to feather his nest for a leadership bid. Apparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted September 21, 2021 Moderator Share Posted September 21, 2021 6 minutes ago, Chindie said: Gavin Barwell's book seems to suggest that Starmer's position on Brexit under the Great Satan resulted in a hard Brexit (Sharjah the wishes of the leadership), which Ashcroft takes further into suggesting his position was used to feather his nest for a leadership bid. Apparently. That's Theresa May's chum, isn't it? Hmmm. I kind of think that yes, Labour's brexit position was an abomination and Starmer is partly responsible for that. As to how it caused a hard brexit, I'm less sure. I mean Theresa May's red lines are the most significant factor by a mile in my eyes - leaving the SM and CU are the basic reasons. Then there's all the Tory infighting and Bunter's ambitions. It looks a bit like barwell trying to blame Labour/Starmer for May's errors. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted September 21, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted September 21, 2021 20 minutes ago, blandy said: That's not (yet) "rowed back on his 10 pledges" really then? I mean I suspect he will and will have to, like I say the world and economy has changed. I've just looked at them and annotated He has chosen to leave a void where policy should be and whilst some are patient, not everybody will be. We shall have to see what conference brings - I mean if he doesn't clearly define what he or Labour stands for at that point then are we to wait patiently again until he does? 14,000 word essays may not cut it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted September 21, 2021 Moderator Share Posted September 21, 2021 15 minutes ago, Jareth said: He has chosen to leave a void where policy should be You're posting this 4 days before Starmer's first Labour Conference and I would imagine at least two years before any hint of an election Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted September 21, 2021 Moderator Share Posted September 21, 2021 40 minutes ago, Chindie said: Starmer's position on Brexit under the Great Satan Just on this - it's kind of difficult top reconcile the implicit notion that leader wasn't responsible for Labour's position back then, but now the leader is Starmer, it is the Leader's responsibility for every position. Isn't the reality that policies are a collective responsibility? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted September 21, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted September 21, 2021 6 minutes ago, bickster said: You're posting this 4 days before Starmer's first Labour Conference and I would imagine at least two years before any hint of an election Yep, and how many months since the 10 pledges were pledged and then filed at the back of the drawer? He's gone here I am, vote for me and I'll give you free beer and hand-jobs, got voted in, and now needs much longer to decide if he really meant the beer was free or if he'd fondle everyone's privates. He might still do it. What a tease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted September 21, 2021 Moderator Share Posted September 21, 2021 Every time I see the line that Starmer was responsible for Labour's policy on Brexit, my mind instantly flashes back to that time at conference when he stormed out of the composite meeting for the Brexit policy motions and wouldn't speak to anyone. He was clearly enraged but sensible enough not to go public with his anger. There were stories in the paper in the following days about a bit of a stitch up at the composite as I recall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted September 21, 2021 Moderator Share Posted September 21, 2021 Just now, Jareth said: He's gone here I am, vote for me and I'll give you free beer and hand-jobs Sounds like Corbyn's "what's in the news today let's invent a policy on the spot unit" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted September 21, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted September 21, 2021 4 minutes ago, bickster said: Sounds like Corbyn's "what's in the news today let's invent a policy on the spot unit" Don't be daft, we all know Corbyn's greatest and most popular offer to the membership was a 2nd holocaust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted September 21, 2021 Moderator Share Posted September 21, 2021 18 minutes ago, Jareth said: Don't be daft, we all know Corbyn's greatest and most popular offer to the membership was a 2nd holocaust. Sorry I missed that one under the weight of all the free sex toys for lonely lesbians on the brink of suicide policies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 38 minutes ago, bickster said: Every time I see the line that Starmer was responsible for Labour's policy on Brexit, my mind instantly flashes back to that time at conference when he stormed out of the composite meeting for the Brexit policy motions and wouldn't speak to anyone. He was clearly enraged but sensible enough not to go public with his anger. There were stories in the paper in the following days about a bit of a stitch up at the composite as I recall Apparently he wasn't allowed to say that remain would be an option in a 2nd referendum under Labour. But did anyway. Which went down like cold sick in certain leave voting areas in 2019. Which ultimately got him the job as leader. So I guess he was right to say it, in the end. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 1 hour ago, blandy said: It's like that post @HanoiVillanwrote when a twitter of Gordon Brown proclaiming all the good things Labour did was posted - "yeah but what about the war and this and that and the other..." - I mean he's right, but show me a perfect politician. My reason for posting that list is not because I have an expectation that politicians will be pure as the driven snow - I wasn't born yesterday - but because the prior post was a video of Gordon Brown talking about his achievements and then a comment that seemed to be suggesting it would be completely unreasonable to look back at that period as if it was anything other than a parade of progressive policies. A vote is a blunt instrument; you only have one, and it allows for no nuance. I won't judge others too harshly for not having the same rationale for their votes that I do, but for me personally, even if I were able to close my eyes to everything else in the list, I would not have been able to vote for Labour until it had repudiated the Iraq war, no matter what (and indeed I didn't). From my perspective, there's no hypothetical number of SureStart centres that would be able to outweigh an illegal war based on a lie that led to a million premature deaths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 8 minutes ago, darrenm said: Apparently he wasn't allowed to say that remain would be an option in a 2nd referendum under Labour. But did anyway. Which went down like cold sick in certain leave voting areas in 2019. Which ultimately got him the job as leader. So I guess he was right to say it, in the end. It all worked out perfectly! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, blandy said: Please take this as a compliment, I may be mistaken, but I seem to recall that in these various bolitics threads you've been a supporter of all kinds of different political figures and parties - even your own at one point? - It's a compliment because it shows you're free thinking rather than tribal - but the flip side is that it kind of shows that putting big faith in politicians to be "the answer" is (IMO) not particularly likely to end in anything other than disillusionment. It's kind of one of the reasons I look at competence more than ideology - ideology always clashes with reality at some point, and then you're let down, or feel foolish. Brexit would be an example - loads of people now have "buyers remorse" that the ideology of a free Britain actually means all kinds of bad stuff happening. It's like that post @HanoiVillanwrote when a twitter of Gordon Brown proclaiming all the good things Labour did was posted - "yeah but what about the war and this and that and the other..." - I mean he's right, but show me a perfect politician. Personally I think it's too soon to see how Labour emerges from its slump of the past however long it is, or if it emerges at all. The pandemic and Brexit in particular have just completely changed things in the past few years, politically. The world isn't as it was, and it will never be the same again. Labour has to adapt to how things actually are, not kind of go back to old historical tenets. Big task. Yeah I agree with all of that. I think the answer I was looking for was for the question 'how do we finally topple these bastards?' and it seemed to me to be the popular policies of 2017 with a different leader who didn't have as many targets on their back. I don't need a hero, I just want someone honest, straight and who will finally beat Manchester United err the Tories Edited September 21, 2021 by darrenm can't write 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted September 21, 2021 Moderator Share Posted September 21, 2021 33 minutes ago, darrenm said: Apparently he wasn't allowed to say that remain would be an option in a 2nd referendum under Labour. But did anyway. Begs the question what Labour's vision of a second referendum would actually have been considering the absolute vast majority of it's membership was Remain which brings us full circle to.... one member one vote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 32 minutes ago, bickster said: Begs the question what Labour's vision of a second referendum would actually have been considering the absolute vast majority of it's membership was Remain which brings us full circle to.... one member one vote Yeah totally. When Starmer said that the Conference crowd went wild because by that time Labour members were massively remainers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 12 minutes ago, darrenm said: Yeah totally. When Starmer said that the Conference crowd went wild because by that time Labour members were massively remainers. "By that time"? Was there any point since the mid-80s where that wasn't the case? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts