The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[chrisp65]

LibDems wiped out in Wales, they’re getting zero.

It was the one LibDem seat that got Labour it’s majority, a sort of coalition but nobody ever spoke its name.

It would appear the nightly relentless promotion of the Abolish Party by the BBC has managed to get them 1.5% of the vote.  

[markavfc40]

Labour doing very well in Wales. Drakeford has done very well with covid and seems to be riding the wave of that and the media time he has been given during the last year or so in which he has come across well.

[chrisp65]

6 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

Labour doing very well in Wales. Drakeford has done very well with covid and seems to be riding the wave of that and the media time he has been given during the last year or so in which he has come across well.

You’ve got to think, that in times of extreme, people have stuck with the incumbent, Scotland, England, Wales, all good for the ruling party.

[Jareth]

30 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

You’ve got to think, that in times of extreme, people have stuck with the incumbent, Scotland, England, Wales, all good for the ruling party.

3 different ruling parties - is this the future? I hope so. 

[chrisp65]

3 minutes ago, Jareth said:

3 different ruling parties - is this the future? I hope so. 

It’ll be interesting to see if the poor performance of Labour in england prompts welsh Labour to emphasise their differentness from the Westminster HQ. But I doubt it.

I think with the regional results, Labour are potentially going to have enough seats not to require a coalition of any sort.

All very close, certainly no collapse like east of the border.

Most positive for me, its looking like none of the three BBC sponsored right wing anti Wales parties will gain a single seat.

 

 

[ml1dch]

8 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

All very close, certainly no collapse like east of the border.

Most positive for me, its looking like none of the three BBC sponsored right wing anti Wales parties will gain a single seat.

Including Neil Hamilton losing his seat with 5% of the vote. 

[villakram]

3 hours ago, bickster said:

Again, what has that specifically got to do with Socialism?

Socialists do not have copyright on wanting social justice

Socialism is many things to many people but the Greens still aren't socialist, not even remotely.

And again, going back to the original point of this discussion branch.... Why would the Greens welcome a toxic influx of left wing socilaists disaffected with the Labour Party? Why would any other party want that?

My quip was a point regarding your description of the Greens, no more.

Interesting how you regard those on the true left as toxic.

Socialism is not communism by the way, though your understanding of the issue would make you fit in very well over here

 

[bickster]

8 hours ago, villakram said:

My quip was a point regarding your description of the Greens, no more.

Interesting how you regard those on the true left as toxic.

Socialism is not communism by the way, though your understanding of the issue would make you fit in very well over here

 

My description of the Greens is accurate. You appear to think they are something they most definitely are not

True left? How silly. And yes toxic people who would argue with themselves if there was no-one else around is pretty much the what the hard left have always been, more interested in their little internal battles. Who on earth would want them inside their party?

Nobody, especially me said socialism was communism. I said socialism doesn't own the left of politics anymore.

FYI last general election aside, I pretty much vote Green, precisely because they are on the left of politics and aren't socialist and the Unions have no influence over them..

 

[tinker]

14 hours ago, Jareth said:

Jess Phillips though? Mate, did you see any of her last leadership campaign? 

I'm not an expert on her but let's look at Boris,  he looked unelectable to me and I still can't believe he's managed to convince  the majority  of the electorate to vote for him.

Philips has a working class background and a working class attitude,  it's that type of persona that will engage labour's potential  voters. Starmer seems so far away from the working class people , Boris has more in common with them.

Labour need to be given back to the people of this country not the Islington lefties who have royally **** the party up. It might be another left wing politician  that can do this, the mayor of Manchester seems grounded. Whoever it is they need to be working class not upper middle.

[darrenm]

1 hour ago, markavfc40 said:

It doesn't need there to be though does it as these results show. You have people who voted for Corbyns Labour who didn't vote for Starmers Labour yesterday. Conversely you had people who voted for Starmers Labour who previously didn't vote for Corbyn.

I'll be honest just as I have for as long as I have been able to vote I voted Labour. During those almost 30 years there have been leaders I haven't liked, been some policies I haven't agreed with but my over riding feeling as always been a Labour party that may not be my ideal is still going to be way better for the masses than being governed by The Tories. 

Just to be clear though had I have lived in a constituency that meant if I could vote Green, Lib Dem, SNP etc and that would be the way to go to beat the Tory I'd have happily done it.

Long read, sorry. I just wanted to share some thoughts around the 'you need your heads banging together' narrative:

I never voted Labour before 2015. I didn't really do politics. I voted Lib Dem in 2010 because Nick Clegg seemed alright and Green in 2015 because no-one else seemed to be talking about the impending climate disaster. Then there was a Labour leadership election, I paid attention and the more I heard from the old lefty the more I liked what he said. It all made sense. To me, it's all common sense. I thought that if that guy gets to be the leader of 1 of the 2 major parties, the country really could be improved. It seemed like it was pretty imperative that it happened because the climate emergency was becoming more of an emergency and domestic issues like homelessness and poverty were ramping up again.

So I paid to vote for him. Then the Labour Party general secretary and other people in charge saw this happening and changed the rules so people like me couldn't do this because the guy they didn't like was winning. So they made it a lot more money to vote. It seemed really unfair that they were gerrymandering in this way so I paid the higher amount and voted again. Changing the rules because the person they didn't like was winning seemed like a nasty bullying tactic and I felt that they shouldn't be allowed to get away with it. Still they did everything they could to stop people voting for him, combing the social media accounts of new members and expelling people because they retweeted a Foo Fighters tweet with a swearword in it.

He still won. The people running the party were still extremely hostile to the new leader and anyone who identified as socialist or on the left so started plotting behind the scenes to find any way they could to discredit him and not allow anything approaching left wing to be the Labour Party's offering. The next opportunity for a coup presented itself after the EU referendum where they blamed Corbyn for leave winning.

Corbyn (naively, it now seems) tried to bring everyone in the party together by building his shadow cabinet out of people from all wings of the party. He gave roles to all of his political opponents. 9 months into his leadership, he faced a leadership challenge with a coordinated string of resignations designed to weaken him and then 172 no confidence votes from the PLP. One of the people he gave a role to was one Keir Starmer QC, who decided that because others were resigning, he should too and that 9 months was long enough for Corbyn to be judged. The leadership election resulted in Corbyn soundly winning again because what the members want is evidently very different to what the MPs and party officials want.

Still, Corbyn kept many people from other factions of the party in the shadow cabinet, promoting Keir Starmer to the shadow Brexit secretary, making Owen Smith – who stood against Corbyn in the leadership challenge – the shadow Northern Ireland secretary. He held out olive branches everywhere even while he was continuously briefed against to the media and many of his own MPs attacked him for any possible thing they could. Too brexity, too remainy, responsible for not dealing with antisemitism even though he was not actually responsible for dealing with antisemitism (that was the general secretary, Iain McNicol, who bizarrely took out a full page advert in the Guardian attacking Corbyn for failures he was responsible for himself, then doing the same appearing in a BBC panorama ‘expose’).

In 2017, the party were expected to get wiped out. McNicol and all of the others in charge of the party had tried to sabotage the election by diverting campaign resources away from seats that Labour could have won and to seats of MPs hostile to Corbyn. They changed the locks on the party’s HQ ready for Corbyn and his team to move out on the day after the election, so sure were they that they’ve accomplished their task. The results were a massive shock. Getting a hung parliament with the largest increase in vote share since 1945 and the largest English vote ever should have made the right wing of the party realise that the left were on to something. Instead they doubled down and continued to sabotage, plot and attack with much greater ferocity. Peter Mandelson said that he tried to undermine Jeremy Corbyn “every single day”.

Fast forward to 2019 where the general election was a terrible result for Labour and the left at large accepted the need for the leader to be someone who could appeal better to the electorate. Keir Starmer pledged 10 points which were catnip to the left. He promised to keep the same progressive disruptive policies of 2017 and 2019 and promised to unite the party. Corbyn supporters voted for him en masse. Since that time things that he’s said and things that his shadow ministers have said without rebuke have gone against almost every point of those pledges and he’s done anything but unite the party.

Starmer expelled left wing Jews from the party for seemingly nothing other that being left wing Jews – something that really ought to have made huge news. Corbyn went to seder with left wing Jews – anti-Semite. Starmer expells Jews for being left wing – silence. He demanded that schools were opened back up in September helping to cause the 2nd COVID wave just so he could challenge the unions. He sacked Long-Bailey for sharing a Guardian article where the actor Maxine Peake made a comment about Israeli training of US police which was technically incorrect but said as a misunderstanding. He suspended and then refused to the restore the whip to Corbyn for saying that the EHRC report’s findings should be implemented as soon as possible although some people had exaggerated the scale of the problem for political purposes (something Starmer himself had said a year previously), and Starmer has selected David Evans as his general secretary who has cracked down so hard on CLPs that they’re now not allowed to make motions of no confidence in Evans or Starmer and will be expelled or suspended if they do, completely wiping out any kind of local activism that was previously present and leaving no-one wanting to canvass.

It’s convenient to ‘both sides’ the problem in the Labour Party but it’s not the truth. The right are selfish wreckers who will stop at nothing to ensure that no left wing politics is on offer to the country because they believe the only way to win is to have nothing to do with the unions, to attack immigrants and to champion austerity. The left are naïve peacenicks who just want to bring everyone together and will never get the chance again because they weren’t ruthless enough to solidify their power when they had it.

And that’s why Labour will only continue to decline. The right have no ideas relevant to the challenges of the 21st century and the left will now never get the chance again (not that they were really allowed a chance in 2015-2019 anyway).

[bickster]

6 minutes ago, tinker said:

Philips has a working class background

Myth. She really doesnt

[tinker]

Just now, bickster said:

Myth. She really doesnt

Well let's not let facts get in the way of a sellable  asset, this is politics, she seems to have a working class background 

[tinker]

While we're on the subject of illusions........who selected Kier Starmer  as a suitable  leader straight after a Brexit vote that was clearly anti European, at all costs (was it Boris?). His name represents  Europe to the vast majority  of these voters who tend to gloss over the facts. Piss poor leadership I'm afraid , even worse than the Boris crew who seem corrupt, incompetent and arrogant. 

 What labour stands for has been lost.

[Jareth]

43 minutes ago, tinker said:

Well let's not let facts get in the way of a sellable  asset, this is politics, she seems to have a working class background 

I admire the sentiment behind your earlier point but on JP - I have to say I know for certain exactly her background - and working class it is not, as much as she wields it as a badge of honour. Not to mention her sheer inability to express a vision of any sort - she's only comfortable when lobbing grenades at people she doesn't like - a very negative politician. 

Edited May 8, 2021 by Jareth

[Jareth]

48 minutes ago, darrenm said:

Long read, sorry. I just wanted to share some thoughts around the 'you need your heads banging together' narrative:

I never voted Labour before 2015. I didn't really do politics. I voted Lib Dem in 2010 because Nick Clegg seemed alright and Green in 2015 because no-one else seemed to be talking about the impending climate disaster. Then there was a Labour leadership election, I paid attention and the more I heard from the old lefty the more I liked what he said. It all made sense. To me, it's all common sense. I thought that if that guy gets to be the leader of 1 of the 2 major parties, the country really could be improved. It seemed like it was pretty imperative that it happened because the climate emergency was becoming more of an emergency and domestic issues like homelessness and poverty were ramping up again.

So I paid to vote for him. Then the Labour Party general secretary and other people in charge saw this happening and changed the rules so people like me couldn't do this because the guy they didn't like was winning. So they made it a lot more money to vote. It seemed really unfair that they were gerrymandering in this way so I paid the higher amount and voted again. Changing the rules because the person they didn't like was winning seemed like a nasty bullying tactic and I felt that they shouldn't be allowed to get away with it. Still they did everything they could to stop people voting for him, combing the social media accounts of new members and expelling people because they retweeted a Foo Fighters tweet with a swearword in it.

He still won. The people running the party were still extremely hostile to the new leader and anyone who identified as socialist or on the left so started plotting behind the scenes to find any way they could to discredit him and not allow anything approaching left wing to be the Labour Party's offering. The next opportunity for a coup presented itself after the EU referendum where they blamed Corbyn for leave winning.

Corbyn (naively, it now seems) tried to bring everyone in the party together by building his shadow cabinet out of people from all wings of the party. He gave roles to all of his political opponents. 9 months into his leadership, he faced a leadership challenge with a coordinated string of resignations designed to weaken him and then 172 no confidence votes from the PLP. One of the people he gave a role to was one Keir Starmer QC, who decided that because others were resigning, he should too and that 9 months was long enough for Corbyn to be judged. The leadership election resulted in Corbyn soundly winning again because what the members want is evidently very different to what the MPs and party officials want.

Still, Corbyn kept many people from other factions of the party in the shadow cabinet, promoting Keir Starmer to the shadow Brexit secretary, making Owen Smith – who stood against Corbyn in the leadership challenge – the shadow Northern Ireland secretary. He held out olive branches everywhere even while he was continuously briefed against to the media and many of his own MPs attacked him for any possible thing they could. Too brexity, too remainy, responsible for not dealing with antisemitism even though he was not actually responsible for dealing with antisemitism (that was the general secretary, Iain McNicol, who bizarrely took out a full page advert in the Guardian attacking Corbyn for failures he was responsible for himself, then doing the same appearing in a BBC panorama ‘expose’).

In 2017, the party were expected to get wiped out. McNicol and all of the others in charge of the party had tried to sabotage the election by diverting campaign resources away from seats that Labour could have won and to seats of MPs hostile to Corbyn. They changed the locks on the party’s HQ ready for Corbyn and his team to move out on the day after the election, so sure were they that they’ve accomplished their task. The results were a massive shock. Getting a hung parliament with the largest increase in vote share since 1945 and the largest English vote ever should have made the right wing of the party realise that the left were on to something. Instead they doubled down and continued to sabotage, plot and attack with much greater ferocity. Peter Mandelson said that he tried to undermine Jeremy Corbyn “every single day”.

Fast forward to 2019 where the general election was a terrible result for Labour and the left at large accepted the need for the leader to be someone who could appeal better to the electorate. Keir Starmer pledged 10 points which were catnip to the left. He promised to keep the same progressive disruptive policies of 2017 and 2019 and promised to unite the party. Corbyn supporters voted for him en masse. Since that time things that he’s said and things that his shadow ministers have said without rebuke have gone against almost every point of those pledges and he’s done anything but unite the party.

Starmer expelled left wing Jews from the party for seemingly nothing other that being left wing Jews – something that really ought to have made huge news. Corbyn went to seder with left wing Jews – anti-Semite. Starmer expells Jews for being left wing – silence. He demanded that schools were opened back up in September helping to cause the 2nd COVID wave just so he could challenge the unions. He sacked Long-Bailey for sharing a Guardian article where the actor Maxine Peake made a comment about Israeli training of US police which was technically incorrect but said as a misunderstanding. He suspended and then refused to the restore the whip to Corbyn for saying that the EHRC report’s findings should be implemented as soon as possible although some people had exaggerated the scale of the problem for political purposes (something Starmer himself had said a year previously), and Starmer has selected David Evans as his general secretary who has cracked down so hard on CLPs that they’re now not allowed to make motions of no confidence in Evans or Starmer and will be expelled or suspended if they do, completely wiping out any kind of local activism that was previously present and leaving no-one wanting to canvass.

It’s convenient to ‘both sides’ the problem in the Labour Party but it’s not the truth. The right are selfish wreckers who will stop at nothing to ensure that no left wing politics is on offer to the country because they believe the only way to win is to have nothing to do with the unions, to attack immigrants and to champion austerity. The left are naïve peacenicks who just want to bring everyone together and will never get the chance again because they weren’t ruthless enough to solidify their power when they had it.

And that’s why Labour will only continue to decline. The right have no ideas relevant to the challenges of the 21st century and the left will now never get the chance again (not that they were really allowed a chance in 2015-2019 anyway).

[markavfc40]

There are millions of people in this country that don't vote Tory. I get the impression Labour are now trying to convince those that do to change their minds and vote for them. What they should be doing though is going after the millions of people that don't vote Tory and offering them something that means they get off their arses and vote Labour. Offer genuine alternatives and show there is a better way.

Labour under Corbyn had some very good, attractive to the electorate policies. They just had the wrong man, in the eyes of many, wanting to deliver them. I am not convinced Starmer is the right man, and whilst accepting it is a difficult time to be in opposition, he has spent the last year failing to oppose with any venom and offering very few alternatives. There needs to be clear lines between the Tories and Labour not pussy footing around trying to be Tory lite and copying the Tory flag shagging in the hope of attracting a few voters back from the dark side. 

It would certainly hep though if they could at the very least unite as a party. I am sure in America there are plenty of democrats who weren't particularly enamoured with Biden. They united though because they realised that if they didn't Trump and all he represented would win again. 

Edited May 8, 2021 by markavfc40

[bickster]

So we're really back to Brian being a very naughty boy, marvelous

[Demitri_C]

Does anyone think under rebecca long bailey they would have performed better in these elections than starmer?

[Sam-AVFC]

1 minute ago, Demitri_C said:

Does anyone think under rebecca long bailey they would have performed better in these elections than starmer?

I very much doubt it. They'd just have had a different chunk of people not feeling motivated to get out and vote.

Neither were a good choice. It seems the 2 big things that have disenfranchised past Labour voters are their approach to Brexit, which Starmer was a figurehead of, and the sort of 'culture wars' RLB is fairly vocal about.

[Demitri_C]

3 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said:

I very much doubt it. They'd just have had a different chunk of people not feeling motivated to get out and vote.

Neither were a good choice. It seems the 2 big things that have disenfranchised past Labour voters are their approach to Brexit, which Starmer was a figurehead of, and the sort of 'culture wars' RLB is fairly vocal about.

Who would you want as leader sam?

Looking around its hard to see who would be next