The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[darrenm]

I'm not sure I like having the same argument as Dominic Cummings

 

[Chindie]

6 minutes ago, darrenm said:

But I'd say that the 2017 and 2019 Labour manifestos were populist. And they would have done the policies and we would all have been better off for them (IMO) e.g. the Green Industrial Revolution, 2bn trees, 4% increase on health spending, net zero carbon by 2040. Even if they couldn't be done, they would have been attempted and possibly stopped by the Lords. They were still populist policies and I can't see a downside?

Think about who was saying these things, then revisit how wrong you are about it being good.

[chrisp65]

[darrenm]

16 minutes ago, Chindie said:

Think about who was saying these things, then revisit how wrong you are about it being good.

Yes, you're right. Apologies.

Like the leaked document for plans to sell the NHS to the Americans. It didn't matter that it was real, we need only be concerned with how it was obtained.

[darrenm]

Of course, Hartlepool could just be isolated and things could be going better for Labour in the council elections

Oh

 

[blandy]

30 minutes ago, darrenm said:

But I'd say that the 2017 and 2019 Labour manifestos were populist

And how did that work out?

The Tory ones were populist too, yet the answer to Blue Flag populism clearly wasn't Red Flag populism, because, well... the Tories got in.

The truth (IMO) is that populism is never a solution to a problem. It's dumbing down, like I said. The state of politics (and the Country) is a result of blue Flag populism - "promise them any old shit that plays to their prejudices and never mind the consequences for the country, we get power and can make ourselves rich"

The actual solution is much harder, sadly. It starts with honesty. The problems of the world are not simple. There isn't a neat solution to any of them. And what solutions there are are complicated with downsides as well as upsides. But that's not what we get told, we vote in an information vacuum, fed by inadequate scrutiny of stuff in the media, cheerleading for Red or Blue, talk of values and talk of how the other lot are all nasty and want to take your first born"

I suspect that once stuff around pandemics and Brexit and so on plays out in the next year or two, the Blue populism will be fairly widely discredited, because it didn't deliver what was promised, and then people will start to be more sceptical of populism and want a better standard of politics. I hope so, anyway.

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

 ADHD.  I see things 

Edited May 7, 2021 by Amsterdam_Neil_D

[icouldtelltheworld]

2 hours ago, Jareth said:

A million percent agree. Only issue is that Labour still contains the snakes that kyboshed the last leadership - Starmer should have ejected them but we all know he has no such ambition (shadow health secretary and wife amongst a few). Said snakes have shown they have no idea how to appeal to voters, other than to assume they're all idiots that'll be persuaded by a union jack and some cheap gags. Last time Labour lost a seat we saw Jess Phillips fist pumping and grinning - I wonder what her reaction was to this result. 

Absolutely - one of the key problems as I see it though is that while Labour has always been a 'broad church', its now 2 (possibly 3) separate parties trapped within the same one party infrastructure by our archaic electoral system. I've long thought that reform was needed, but increasingly I feel its the only way we'll ever have anything resembling a progressive government ever again

[darrenm]

26 minutes ago, icouldtelltheworld said:

Absolutely - one of the key problems as I see it though is that while Labour has always been a 'broad church', its now 2 (possibly 3) separate parties trapped within the same one party infrastructure by our archaic electoral system. I've long thought that reform was needed, but increasingly I feel its the only way we'll ever have anything resembling a progressive government ever again

That's why I think The Greens are absolutely bonkers not opening their doors for Labour socialist defectors. They could really swell in size and have a huge influence.

[Chindie]

4 minutes ago, darrenm said:

That's why I think The Greens are absolutely bonkers not opening their doors for Labour socialist defectors. They could really swell in size and have a huge influence.

On the downside they'd be an existential threat to Jewish people overnight.

[bickster]

1 minute ago, darrenm said:

That's why I think The Greens are absolutely bonkers not opening their doors for Labour socialist defectors.

The Green Party is not a socialist party. Why would they want an influx of socialists? The Green Party needs an influx of people that believe in environmental issues, first and foremost. I very much doubt they want to become the new home for people who want to argue with their shadow and ally themselves with Trade Unions.

[MessiWillSignForVilla]

2 hours ago, darrenm said:

I'm not sure I like having the same argument as Dominic Cummings

 

Annoyingly, that entire thread seems to make some good points, minus the annoying use of phrases like "beta-lawyer-gamma-politician".

[Seat68]

 

[Jareth]

Corbyn said something very truthful - the fact that thousands of voters didn't bother voting shows there is a lack of hope. Tories are thriving in a world of apathy. 

[darrenm]

Just now, Jareth said:

Corbyn said something very truthful - the fact that thousands of voters didn't bother voting shows there is a lack of hope. Tories are thriving in a world of apathy. 

Yep. If only there was some way to turn that apathy around. Like some policies that make you go 'wow' maybe?

[desensitized43]

Just now, Jareth said:

Corbyn said something very truthful - the fact that thousands of voters didn't bother voting shows there is a lack of hope. Tories are thriving in a world of apathy. 

I didn't vote yesterday. I always have done since being old enough (I'm now 33). I just thought yesterday "why should I bother?". I knew Labour were going to get a kicking in my area (Halesowen/Dudley) and but they didn't do enough to convince me to come out and vote for them. I don't want the tories, but you can't expect people to just vote "not tory". It's not a lack of hope or apathy that's blaming the electorate for their failings as a party.

[Jareth]

3 minutes ago, darrenm said:

Yep. If only there was some way to turn that apathy around. Like some policies that make you go 'wow' maybe?

Pish! There was this in Feb - 

Extend business rate relief and the VAT cut for hospitality and leisure.

Ease the burden of debt that weighs down so many businesses.

And by extending and updating the furlough scheme so it’s better able to help people back into work.

[OutByEaster?]

I think the solution to this is pretty straightforward, get back to pushing the policies that resonated with the electorate in 2017 with the more orthodox leader we have today. I think that's what people thought we were getting with Starmer but it's been very disappointing thus far.

I think that in terms of picking up and putting down flags, Starmer's leadership thus far has been so much focused on winning the Labour party that there's been a neglect of the electorate that's shown in these results. He's not just put down the flag of red populism, he's put down the flag of policy altogether - Labour don't stand for anything at the moment, there's nothing to vote for - Labour voters stayed home and the floating voters went with voting for something over voting for nothing.

I'm worried that the Labour Party as it stands are so misguided that they'll refuse to pick that flag up again, simply because it's associated with Corbyn. Those policies gave Labour the biggest bump they've had in fifteen to twenty years, they're the very heart of what the Labour party should be doing and I believe that they are what Labour voters want. I have a horrible feeling that instead Starmer will push even harder at the 'Tories with a heart' line and we'll end up with a party in irrelevance and another decade of Tory rule.

There are huge lessons to be learned from these elections, the opportunity is still there, but if the small group of people pushing the party to the right keep pushing, they'll push it into the void.

[Chindie]

Given the ruling faction was apparently genuinely gutted when the 2017 result wasn't as bad as they worked to make it, the chances of them going left are less than none.

[Only2McInallys]

It has been mentioned on here the relative success of Labour  in the 2017 election.

Whilst there was some good policies in that manifesto I think the 2017 election was a second Brexit vote.People saw that if the Tories won a majority it would be hard Brexit.and many people at that time didn’t want that.

Later after the electoral deadlock in 2019 they changed their mind.