bickster Posted December 15, 2019 Moderator Share Posted December 15, 2019 4 hours ago, colhint said: That's OK but how many seats in the North do you think an Arch remainer from London will bring back? They only lost 400,000 that way, they lost 2 million from the remain camp and there will be plenty more who did vote Labour that may never again 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 12 minutes ago, hippo said: Problem is - you can join labour for £3 now - and vote for the next leader early next year. That's open to so much abuse its incredible - that's the reason for the delay - to recruit a load of young angrys - who back Rayner/RBL Why would it be only these who would join, rather than a wider group of supporters, or even opponents? In fact, opponents are more likely to afford the higher price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 3 minutes ago, bickster said: They only lost 400,000 that way, they lost 2 million from the remain camp and there will be plenty more who did vote Labour that may never again Those figures are wrong, and are based on a tweet which simply netted off some broad figures. Read the thread. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 7 minutes ago, hippo said: Imagine the uproar - if someone senior ranking said " the next leader must be male and he must come from London" Why has where the next leader lives become a factor .....bonkers... But if we recognise that of our 55 Prime Ministers to date, 28 went to Oxford and 20 to Eton...is that ok? Is it ok if we just allow it without vocalising it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 2 hours ago, Jon said: King Clive for me. Ticks the ethnic minority box, top guy, ex army which may appeal to some voters on the right. On the left, so electable in terms of party membership. Worked for the BBC as well which might help. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted December 15, 2019 Moderator Share Posted December 15, 2019 Just now, peterms said: But if we recognise that of our 55 Prime Ministers to date, 28 went to Oxford and 20 to Eton...is that ok? Is it ok if we just allow it without vocalising it? Whats that got to do with the Labour Party? They've only had 6 PMs, only one of them from London and half of them didn't go to Oxford or Cambridge and none went to Eton. Three of them were Scottish 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 3 minutes ago, bickster said: Whats that got to do with the Labour Party? It's about where our leaders come from. The concept of "leaders" is not specific to a political party, and in fact one prevalent criticism of Corbyn was that he wasn't enough like the stereotype of a "leader" for those who take a deferential approach to politics. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post bickster Posted December 15, 2019 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted December 15, 2019 18 minutes ago, peterms said: It's about where our leaders come from. The concept of "leaders" is not specific to a political party, and in fact one prevalent criticism of Corbyn was that he wasn't enough like the stereotype of a "leader" for those who take a deferential approach to politics. Rubbish, the criticism of Corbyn is that he was a shit leader. Not once have I ever seen what you've suggested. He just wasn't a leader, in fact he was more a puppet of McLusky and Milne, that specialised in preaching to the converted He either couldn't or refused to stay on message, he found it extremely hard to push policies that he himself wasn't actually committed to And as for the AS crisis, whatever you may think of that, he never even came close to getting a grip on it It didn't even come up in this election (but did the last), he couldn't even convince anyone that he'd press the button if he needed to, now whilst I have every sympathy with that, it doesn't play well. He was that bad, they didn't even have to play that card McDonnel today was blaming the media for their relentless personal attacks on Corbyn, he's spinning a yarn there, I didn't see one. No dressed like a tramp, hardly even a mention of the allotment. It's a delusional retelling of very recent history He just wasn't a leader in any shape or form His new form of leadership appeared to be anti-leadership 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 4 minutes ago, bickster said: Rubbish, the criticism of Corbyn is that he was a shit leader. You have demonstrated the exact point I made. 5 minutes ago, bickster said: he was more a puppet of McLusky and Milne, that specialised in preaching to the converted Do you read the Mail, and repeat its insights? 5 minutes ago, bickster said: And as for the AS crisis, whatever you may think of that, he never even came close to getting a grip on it It is not a crisis, and you will see that It will soon evaporate if it hasn't already. It was a convenient tool to attack him, nothing more. 5 minutes ago, bickster said: he couldn't even convince anyone that he'd press the button if he needed to He wouldn't be keen to evaporate millions of people, leading to a conflagration that would destroy the planet? Bastard! Lefty, white feather, pacifist bastard! 6 minutes ago, bickster said: dressed like a tramp, Get a grip, man. 6 minutes ago, bickster said: His new form of leadership appeared to be anti-leadership Many find that rather appealing, especially those who have not served in the forces of repression. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted December 15, 2019 Moderator Share Posted December 15, 2019 Yet again I'll give up. I can't be bothered with people that refuse to read what is actually said. Possibly the worst conclusions from a post and selective quoting ever witnessed. Well done for missing out all the context 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 Meanwhile, as Labour limber up to spend the next 4 months arguing over the correct demographic cocktail for their leader, this was tory HQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colhint Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 Peter you appear to be suggesting he was any good. Now given that he was the Leader of a major political party which has just had it's worst defeat in the last 85 years near enough, how can you defend him. Point for point is ok, but it's like saying, elmo is a good crosser, but slow, or connor has great free kick but not so good getting stuck in. He was meant, with the support of half a million members to win, or even come close. It was like Brazil 1 Germany 7. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 14 minutes ago, bickster said: Yet again I'll give up. I can't be bothered with people that refuse to read what is actually said. I think your problem with my post is that I did actually read what you said. It was generic insults. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted December 16, 2019 Moderator Share Posted December 16, 2019 3 hours ago, Jon said: King Clive for me. Ticks the ethnic minority box, top guy, ex army which may appeal to some voters on the right. On the left, so electable in terms of party membership. He's impressed, certainly. Good call. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post blandy Posted December 16, 2019 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted December 16, 2019 1 hour ago, peterms said: It's about where our leaders come from. The concept of "leaders" is not specific to a political party, and in fact one prevalent criticism of Corbyn was that he wasn't enough like the stereotype of a "leader" for those who take a deferential approach to politics. "It's about where our leaders come from" - I'd rather it was about ability. We (general we) had this discussion maybe a year or more ago. I said then the most important characteristic for me, in a party leader is competence, and I remember the view of @OutByEaster? was much more along the lines of having the necessary Ideology or set of values (apols if I got that slightly wrong, Scott). I think the concept of leaders is pretty much the same across any political party. They need to be able to communicate clearly, think clearly, gather multiple facets together, sometimes conflicting ones and define a clear message or direction from those aspects. They need to be able to reach out across pure party lines to widen the appeal of their party. They need to appear (particularly for the bigger parties) like they could step into the role of PM immediately. They to be even handed, open and able to perform when tires, or under the weather. And they need to be seen to be all these things. They also need to be respected by their peers, in order for their peers in their party (and maybe at times other parties) to allow them room for mistakes, for having to go in a direction that ideally they might not wish to go. It's important to have credibility and integrity and genuinely held beliefs. They also need to be pretty intelligent and able to think quickly - whether in debating or in interviews or in anticipating and understanding the motivations of others and the challenges that will pose. There's more than one way to skin a cat, of course, but in my view anyone lacking more than a couple of those aspects is going to end up struggling. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 I hear Corbyn's opened a new shop together with some momentum blokes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 6 hours ago, peterms said: I think your problem with my post is that I did actually read what you said. It was generic insults. Peter, I've always wondered why you so ferociously defend someone you claim to not vote for. I'd be interested to find out why. Care to share? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 I personally think Labour's problems have been driven massively by Twitter. Most people in Westminster use Twitter, but it's particularly popular among (and taken most seriously by) the left. The problems are that most ordinary people don't use Twitter... if they do, it probably isn't for politics... and what "bangs" on Twitter is completely unrepresentative of what most people think. That's especially true when you've blocked any "evil Tories", "red Tories", "Tory stooge journos", "neoliberals", "centrist dads", "Blairites", etc. When you see people like Stella Creasy talk about the death threats and misogynistic abuse they get on Twitter, okay it's terrible, but my first thought is always, do you seriously care what some anonymous teenager has said on the internet? Obsessing over online trolling and hashtag debates has ruined the Labour party, and that goes way beyond Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott. It dates back to Ed Miliband, and he's the one who started this drift into self-congratulatory virtue signalling over pragmatism. The whole FBPE movement is similarly deluded. It drives me nuts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Awol Posted December 16, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 16, 2019 Bickster labelled as a Daily Mail reader.. I’m off to church, the end-times are coming. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 10 minutes ago, Awol said: Bickster labelled as a Daily Mail reader.. I’m off to church, the end-times are coming. TBF it was one of the most mail-esque posts I've ever seen from him. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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