The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[Vive_La_Villa]

33 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

*sigh*

 

 

Is this even true about Yaqoob?

[blandy]

1 hour ago, magnkarl said:

Israel has been attacked more times by their neighbours since 1950 than the other way around. The fact that they've probably pushed further than they should have in the Six-Day War and the Yom Kippur War after getting attacked by a combined Libanese, Egyptian, Jordanese and in some cases Iraqi forces is hardly being the 'agressor'.

That provides historical context, as does the holocaust and its echoes, to various actions. It completely and totally does not excuse the appalling behaviour of Israeli forces, Israeli politicians (some) towards Palestine and Palestinians. Israel as a nation/government has and continues to act appallingly over Palestine. It's utterly atrocious, and those actions and behaviours should be condemned completely.

All of which is nothing to do with anti-semitism, other than some effwits can't sadly distinguish between or seperate what government or its forces do and "jews" generally.

[bickster]

3 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Is this even true about Yaqoob?

You'll find out fairly soon I'd imagine

[Seat68]

1 hour ago, ml1dch said:

*sigh*

 

 

So erm, why do you think Labour are the party for me again? 

Edited November 7, 2019 by Seat68

[Chindie]

37 minutes ago, blandy said:

I don't think we're far apart. I agree with about 98% of what you say on this. I guess the only difference we have is that while I completely accept all sorts of partisan people do play it up, in some cases ridiculously so, for me personally there's a significant amount enough of it, compounded by an utter ineffectiveness in dealing totally firmly and unequivocally with it (I accept it's impossible, nigh on, to make a racist not be a racist, or to ever totally eliminate human idiocy/hate) that for a supposedly avowedly anti-racist, stand up for minorities party for it not to be a "crisis". So perhaps we differ on how we define "crisis". It's certainly hurting them. You've only got to look on twitter (yes, I know) to see, in the last day or so the sewer of it around a reinstate Chris Williamson  push that was going on, to see that many JC4PM and hard left types are just vile with it. They may not be all Labour members or voters, who can tell, but they're attaching themselves to Labour and trying to get the pillock re-instated into Labour. I know happily he hasn't been, but it's surrounding the harder left labour lot and they're not doing much more than the fig-leaf minimum to condemn and utterly distance themselves from it. There's a strong sniff of they don't actually condemn it at all, perhaps in some "greater cause", perhaps because they share it, beneath the veneer.

Perhaps we aren't.

I question things though. You feel personally that, to paraphrase, there's no smoke without fire. But the only smoke I ever see on this is the latest person on the right of Labour and long time LFI member who really doesn't like Corbyn raising it. It seems to me personally that the smoke is the amplification by partisan figures. 

I agree that the Labour Party should have no racism, but that is an impossibility, so I can't call something that to me seems like a lot of bark a crisis. Is some of it merited? Absolutely. Has the Party made a hash of it? Yes - although I also note that they got chastised when they made efforts to speed up the process, and various other instances of anything being done not being good enough to the accusers. Mysteriously for a lot of vocal ones, the only remedy was the leadership's head. One wonders why.

Twitter is no great measure of anything. At best it's decent for reports from people with their ear to the ground or niche knowledge. Drawing much from randoms on there is pointless (every single cause on there is filled by words removed. Any). But even so I'm not really surprised at any siege mentality and push back coming from a Corbyn supporting group at the amount of bollocks thrown at them. It's no shock some respond by going over the other way. Even the Williamson stuff - he's a moron but the stuff he said isn't a million miles away from things I've said here today. And I am aware that on some forums what I've said here would be considered anti-Semitic. When I know I've not a single thing about me that is racist on any front.

[bobzy]

Has anything come out publicly?  I admit, I haven't really followed the anti-Semitic stuff - I'm just very aware that there is apparently an issue with it in the Labour party.  Has anything anti-Semitic been said by Corbyn or any of his aides etc?  Genuine question, I don't know the answer.

[Xela]

As for more Labour candidates with dubious views see Zarah Sultana & Ali Milani. 

 

[Vive_La_Villa]

56 minutes ago, bickster said:

You'll find out fairly soon I'd imagine

I mean the part about her defending homophobic school protests. Is that true or were her comments taken out of context?

[Chindie]

18 minutes ago, bobzy said:

Has anything come out publicly?  I admit, I haven't really followed the anti-Semitic stuff - I'm just very aware that there is apparently an issue with it in the Labour party.  Has anything anti-Semitic been said by Corbyn or any of his aides etc?  Genuine question, I don't know the answer.

Criticism of Corbyn himself is on 3 fronts -

He has shared a platform with anti-Israel groups like Hamas who have decidedly anti-Semitic history.

He complained about the removal of a mural which showed bankers ruling over the worker which had anti-Semitic imagery.

He's the head of the party during a period where is come under scrutiny for anti-Semitism and been criticised for his and the party's response not being good enough. It was also alleged that the party was basically trying to avoid getting rid of certain figures, like Williamson and Livingstone, who were investigated for alleged anti-Semitic remarks (in both cases I'd argue they've been stupid more than anything but investigations took too long for the complainants etc etc).

The first 2 are just him being stupid in a student politics kinda way in my view, which is his biggest flaw really. And the third is hard to judge but most of the complainants seem to come from a group who just want him to go at any cost, as it seems a lot of the issues with dealing with complaints came from the complaints team itself being dreadful and changes made actually improved the situation greatly.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Chindie

[markavfc40]

38 minutes ago, Xela said:

As for more Labour candidates with dubious views see Zarah Sultana & Ali Milani. 

 

Both parties are littered with candidates with dubious views. In fairness when you have a Prime Minister who has described Muslim women as letterboxes, black people as piccaninnies with watermelon smiles and gay men as bum boys, setting the example what hope have you got.

[Xann]

51 minutes ago, bobzy said:

Has anything anti-Semitic been said by Corbyn....?  

He's proper fluffy about minority communities at home. Equal everything.

Trying to sellotape anti-Semitism onto him is silly.

So much of it, whilst the country's risking a fisting without mercy from Club Food Bank.

 

 

[Chindie]

Even for all of the valid flaws of the current Labour Party, it does boggle the mind that anyone in say 95% of the population can look at Johnson vs Corbyn and think Johnson's the man for me.

[peterms]

6 hours ago, magnkarl said:

Say that Britain got invaded by France, Belgium, Ireland and the Netherlands, would you claim that we were the attackers if we pushed them back?

Is this irony?  The Israeli state is the invader, having driven Palestinians off their land through massacres, terrorism, theft of land, and the establishment of a system of apartheid to rival the old South Africa.  They are the attackers.  They are the aggressors.

[Vive_La_Villa]

7 hours ago, Chindie said:

Even for all of the valid flaws of the current Labour Party, it does boggle the mind that anyone in say 95% of the population can look at Johnson vs Corbyn and think Johnson's the man for me.

I think it’s more of a case of looking at Johnson vs Corbyn and thinking Corbyn’s not the man for me.

[Seat68]

Thats the problem for a lot of people, not necessarily on VT, but amongst friends, you dont like Corbyn, so you must like Johnson, you dont like Labour, so you must like the Conservatives. There are other options, no the other options wont get power but in this day and age I vote for who I want, and not to stop someone I don't want. If the consensus doesn't agree, well sadly thats it, thats democracy.

[magnkarl]

5 hours ago, peterms said:

Is this irony?  The Israeli state is the invader, having driven Palestinians off their land through massacres, terrorism, theft of land, and the establishment of a system of apartheid to rival the old South Africa.  They are the attackers.  They are the aggressors.

The irony is that you seem to think that it's the Jews fault that they were put in Palestine rather than anywhere else in the world. Your issue isn't with IDF, it's with the British government during WW1 who decided this was a good place to put it. It was a stupid place to house the most persecuted group of people in the world, even the common man in the street knew that they would fight to the last man because of what has happened to them throughout history.

[blandy]

9 hours ago, Chindie said:

You feel personally that, to paraphrase, there's no smoke without fire. But the only smoke I ever see.....

I’ve seen the fires.

[bobzy]

41 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I think it’s more of a case of looking at Johnson vs Corbyn and thinking Corbyn’s not the man for me.

Still baffling, to be honest.

I'm not entirely sure what Corbyn has done drastically wrong (he appears a bit weak, to me.  Maybe that's it?), whereas Johnson is a habitual liar, dangerously-viewed, and a horrifically self-important, odious person.  On an incredibly basic, populist level, he's lied about pretty much everything - including the whole reason we're in this mess - and has even made casual racist remarks about certain women looking like "letterboxes".

Great guy, vote him in!  He's the lying, racist **** we need to run this country (into the ground).

Edited November 8, 2019 by bobzy

[Chindie]

27 minutes ago, blandy said:

I’ve seen the fires.

I've not.

[Vive_La_Villa]

41 minutes ago, bobzy said:

Still baffling, to be honest.

I'm not entirely sure what Corbyn has done drastically wrong (he appears a bit weak, to me.  Maybe that's it?), whereas Johnson is a habitual liar, dangerously-viewed, and a horrifically self-important, odious person.  On an incredibly basic, populist level, he's lied about pretty much everything - including the whole reason we're in this mess - and has even made casual racist remarks about certain women looking like "letterboxes".

Great guy, vote him in!  He's the lying, racist **** we need to run this country (into the ground).

Fair points but being a lying racist **** doesn’t necessarily mean he would run the country to the ground. Just as nice guy Corbyn may not be so good for the country either. **** em both!