The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[NurembergVillan]

2 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

1. Leave (no deal) 

2. Leave (some form of a deal, let's say the Theresa May one, for tbe sake of argument)

3. Remain

The above wording would enrage the Leavers, as it would split the Leave vote and usher in a Remain win, with quite possibly a smaller number than the combined Leave votes. 

 

That's why we need the Mrs Brown question. Then there can be no arguments.

[Mic09]

3 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

1. Leave (no deal) 

2. Leave (some form of a deal, let's say the Theresa May one, for tbe sake of argument)

3. Remain

The above wording would enrage the Leavers, as it would split the Leave vote and usher in a Remain win, with quite possibly a smaller number than the combined Leave votes. 

(All fine by me, but I can't see them daring to do it). 

 

Logistically/lawfully, could we do a double referendum where you have 2 options to pick out of 3 (the ones you outlined above) and 2 favoured out of three go into a second referendum to follow a week or two later? 

[LakotaDakota]

The minimum wage is probably fine if you are a couple over 25, have a full time job(40 hour p/w) don't have kids & don't live in london.

After tax & ni you are each left with £291 p/w, £1,262 p/m £15,148 p/y

For a couple £30,000 per year after tax should be more than enough to get by on really. Unless you are going after a modern city centre apartment or something a reasonable average rent/mortgage on a 2 bed house/flat will be £700 or so. Another £300 or so on c.tax/gas/elec/water/insurance etc and it still leaves a pretty reasonable disposable income of £350p/w between 2 people. Obviously you need food,clothes, travel etc Now you're not going to be rolling in money or going on 3 holidays every year but it should only really become a bit tight if you are both stupid enough to be paying £50p/m each on a phone contract & another £100+ per month on virgin/sky/netflix/xbox/amazon subs etc.

If you're on your own or with kids it changes things quite dramatically but a couple or a couple of mates living together should actually be reasonably well off on the current minimum.

I'm not sure people realise just how much the minimum wage actually is, It gets banded about as some awful thing but if it goes up to the rumoured £8.67 in april this will be a minimum wage of just over £18,000, Jump to Labours proposed £10 per hour and that sets the minimum wage for 40 hours per week to £20,800. Every single shelf stacker, cleaner, burger flipper, checkout operator etc will be on more than 20 grand per year. This is more than the lowest police starting salary at the moment.

It is going to make things like retail jobs where a managerial role is currently something like 22-25k a bit of an issue when everyone starting on day 1 will be on nearly 21k. Expect a few more empty shops heading to your high street soon

Edited September 23, 2019 by LakotaDakota

[snowychap]

2 hours ago, Mic09 said:

or about 6.80/7 as it was back then

Three to four years ago?

Edited September 23, 2019 by snowychap

[LakotaDakota]

25 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

1. Leave (no deal) 

2. Leave (some form of a deal, let's say the Theresa May one, for tbe sake of argument)

3. Remain

The above wording would enrage the Leavers, as it would split the Leave vote and usher in a Remain win, with quite possibly a smaller number than the combined Leave votes. 

(All fine by me, but I can't see them daring to do it). 

 

Obviously it would split the leave vote in 2 so it isn't exactly fair/balanced. You could actually do it as some sort of sub category i guess though. Your 2 basic choices as per the initial vote would be a simple leave or remain. Add up the totals and you have your result

You could at the same time have an additional choice under the leave vote of a preferred deal/no deal exit method, should leave win again these choices would then be counted. Seems simple enough to properly gauge the "will of the people"

[PompeyVillan]

50 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

The problem I have is that I don't disagree with yourself or Chrisp at all. 

Can I once again say that there is plenty of poverty that we need to tackle in this country and we should not rest in our pursuit to help others?

Would you not agree that we are very fortunate to live in a country where the vast majority of people, even those earning minimum wage, are able to live a good life compared to the  majority of rest of the world? 

Do you not agree that people die to come here, to better their lives? Is the fact that they are fleeing their homes and risking lives enough evidence that life in UK is better than in most places in the world? Not perfect, not amazing, not satisfactory to my standard, but better?

And can we not, in this god forsaken world where babies die on the streets of starvation appreciate the good stuff we have and are able to give to those most needy in the UK?

I'm not sure what this really means? 

If you've had a humble upbringing then perhaps you'll understand, but someone else's struggles don't make your own feel any less terrifying. 

Trying to frame the inequality in the country this way comes across as apologism for the way the country has been run for the past 8 years or whatever since the nasty party got in. I'm not sure whether that is your intention though. 

 

[Mic09]

3 hours ago, snowychap said:

Three to four years ago?

Wow, I just had a look at it and it was much lower at the time, I didn't realise how much we we jumped up.

Much longer ago than four years!

[Mic09]

3 hours ago, PompeyVillan said:

I'm not sure what this really means? 

If you've had a humble upbringing then perhaps you'll understand, but someone else's struggles don't make your own feel any less terrifying. 

Absolutely. Each fights their own fight and struggles in life, there are people with next to nothing who are happy about life where others cry out for help. If my belly is empty I won't feel better that I could have had it worse. 

At the same time, I thank God we live in a country where there are many fewer empty bellies than in most parts of the world.

Quote

Trying to frame the inequality in the country this way comes across as apologism for the way the country has been run for the past 8 years or whatever since the nasty party got in.

No apologising the way the country has been run. In my previous so agressively ridiculed posts I have made it clear again and again that we should not settle for whatever we have and we have to do more to help others. I made it clear I am not satisfied and we should not rest until we help the poor the way we are capable of.

Quote

I'm not sure whether that is your intention though. 

Intention? Realising that Britain is not a 3rd world country like Somalia where vultures await over a starving body of a child and we are capable of helping others much better than we are doing now.

I think Chrisp said that we could end starvation and homelessness right now if we wanted to. 

That is my point exactly - we could and we have the resources to actually fight that fight.

I feel that Somalians do not have the same opportunity to do so.

Edit: I will also add that even the poorest of people have it better here than in many parts of the world, and I see it as problematic that we are not realising the fact that people die, literally die, to come here and start at the very bottom. In fact it's shameful that we can't appreciate that fact. 

Edited September 24, 2019 by Mic09

[Mic09]

4 hours ago, LakotaDakota said:

The minimum wage is probably fine if you are a couple over 25, have a full time job(40 hour p/w) don't have kids & don't live in london.

After tax & ni you are each left with £291 p/w, £1,262 p/m £15,148 p/y

Most people at the bottom work much more than 40 hours a week as well. Overtime is something that people fight for to make a little extra and be able to afford an easier life with more luxuries.

[LondonLax]

6 hours ago, Mic09 said:

Logistically/lawfully, could we do a double referendum where you have 2 options to pick out of 3 (the ones you outlined above) and 2 favoured out of three go into a second referendum to follow a week or two later? 

You don’t even need that. 

Just ask the public to rank the three choices 1-3 from most favoured to least (Easy enough to explain on the ballot).

When tallying up the results you look at the ballots for the option that came last and redistribute those votes over to the other two options based on what those voters put second. 

Then you have all voters in just two piles and the winner is the biggest pile. 

This means the majority got their first or second favourite option, rather than a minority winning through by splitting the majority opinion.

It’s the system of voting Australia uses for the lower house and the system the UK conservatives use for electing their leaders. It is also the system that was put forward as on option for the UK under the Clegg/Cameron coalition. 

[Dr_Pangloss]

Is there anything more cringe worthy than the incessant 'oooo Jeremy Corbyn' chants? Talk about cult of personality.

[Seat68]

6 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

Is there anything more cringe worthy than the incessant 'oooo Jeremy Corbyn' chants? Talk about cult of personality.

I appreciate my hatred of this might stem from me being "look at Corbyn, bloody breathing air and walking normally, the utter shit" but whenever his supporters are shown doing that chant, I end up disliking the Labour Party a little more. 

[Mic09]

46 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

You don’t even need that. 

Just ask the public to rank the three choices 1-3 from most favoured to least (Easy enough to explain on the ballot).

When tallying up the results you look at the ballots for the option that came last and redistribute those votes over to the other two options based on what those voters put second. 

Then you have all voters in just two piles and the winner is the biggest pile. 

This means the majority got their first or second favourite option, rather than a minority winning through by splitting the majority opinion.

It’s the system of voting Australia uses for the lower house and the system the UK conservatives use for electing their leaders. It is also the system that was put forward as on option for the UK under the Clegg/Cameron coalition. 

Yup I get that, but I wonder if statistically/mathematically that might still put remain/referendum at a disadvantage considering its:

Leave (pro brexit)

Remain (pro EU)

Referendum (arguably pro EU)

As someone said, pro EU options are split over two camps. 

[bickster]

41 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

It is also the system that was put forward as on option for the UK under the Clegg/Cameron coalition

Well it is and it isn't. They put forward AV (Alternative Vote) and those countries you mention (and Scotland, Ireland and NI closer to home) use STV (Single transferable vote). Essentially when there is only one winner those two system are the same but when you have multiseat elections the dynamics change somewhat

[bickster]

6 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

Yup I get that, but I wonder if statistically/mathematically that might still put remain/referendum at a disadvantage considering its:

Leave (pro brexit)

Remain (pro EU)

Referendum (arguably pro EU)

As someone said, pro EU options are split over two camps. 

Why would referendum be a choice in the referendum?

[Wainy316]

9 hours ago, Mic09 said:

Logistically/lawfully, could we do a double referendum where you have 2 options to pick out of 3 (the ones you outlined above) and 2 favoured out of three go into a second referendum to follow a week or two later? 

Let’s have 32 different options.  8 groups of four and each option in each group plays each other.  The top two from each group then go to the knockout and phase/round of 16 and so on until the final.  Don’t forget the third place play off too.

Edited September 24, 2019 by Wainy316

[Mic09]

55 minutes ago, Wainy316 said:

Let’s have 32 different options.  8 groups of four and each option in each group plays each other.  The top two from each group ten go to the knockout and phase/round of 16 and so on until the final.  Don’t forget the third place play off too.

I bet you Leave will get an easy draw Vs Mrs Mays deal in the quarters and that will be the end of it.

[LondonLax]

1 hour ago, bickster said:

Well it is and it isn't. They put forward AV (Alternative Vote) and those countries you mention (and Scotland, Ireland and NI closer to home) use STV (Single transferable vote). Essentially when there is only one winner those two system are the same but when you have multiseat elections the dynamics change somewhat

I knew someone would pick me up on the details

[mjmooney]

1 hour ago, Mic09 said:

I bet you Leave will get an easy draw Vs Mrs Mays deal in the quarters and that will be the end of it.

And Remain will be in El Gruppo del Muerte, with "Invade Europe" and "Round Up All The Foreigners And Put Them In Internment Camps".

[bickster]

Red Len going all Trump. Lying and denying is the new truth