bickster Posted August 23, 2019 Moderator Share Posted August 23, 2019 20 minutes ago, Chindie said: uniquely or extremely of a position Not sure that bit was said by anyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 5 minutes ago, colhint said: That's not really the case. The Tu Quoque points out the counter argument is illogical. If I were to say to my son it's bad to smoke and he replied that I used to. The salient point is it's wrong to smoke. If someone suggests there is a problem with antisemitism it is incorerct to say others have a problem. The logical answer is yes there is a problem or no there isn't. The philosopher Westphal suggests only the guilty can find comfort in others being just as bad or worse. Unless there is no antisemitism in the Labour party Tu quoque applies I have no knowledge of philosophy whatsoever (nor do I care) but any 'rule' or 'fallacy' that doesn't allow people to point out hypocrisy is useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colhint Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 Trump and Putin use it all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted August 23, 2019 Moderator Share Posted August 23, 2019 3 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: I have no knowledge of philosophy whatsoever (nor do I care) but any 'rule' or 'fallacy' that doesn't allow people to point out hypocrisy is useless. Hypocrisy would be pointing out to the accusers that they were no better, we aren't talking about hypocrisy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted August 23, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted August 23, 2019 6 minutes ago, colhint said: That's not really the case. The Tu Quoque points out the counter argument is illogical. If I were to say to my son it's bad to smoke and he replied that I used to. The salient point is it's wrong to smoke. If someone suggests there is a problem with antisemitism it is incorerct to say others have a problem. The logical answer is yes there is a problem or no there isn't. The philosopher Westphal suggests only the guilty can find comfort in others being just as bad or worse. Unless there is no antisemitism in the Labour party Tu quoque applies No. Tu quoque would stand if the argument was that because anti-Semitism exists in other parties there can be no case made against Labour. The Labour party isn't saying that anti-Semitism does not exist in the party, or that anti-Semitism isn't wrong. The argument being put forth is that the Labour party is somehow uniquely severely anti-Semitic, that it is institutionally so, as implied by the level of uproar, various aspersions etc in this 'crisis'. Pointing out that the membership is found to be less anti-Semitic than other parties, society as a whole, etc is not available example of the hypocrisy fallacy. It's a counter to the idea that is implied that there is an epidemic of anti-Semitism in the party, that the party has a unique problem with it. It doesn't. This is not to say that criticism for anti-Semitism is wrong, or that other parties (and society) should get their house in order before casting their stone, as would be the case in an example of hypocrisy fallacy. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted August 23, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted August 23, 2019 19 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: I have no knowledge of philosophy whatsoever (nor do I care) but any 'rule' or 'fallacy' that doesn't allow people to point out hypocrisy is useless. Tu quoque is a specific thing. It's when you use the failings of your accuser to counter their accusation - you are a hypocrite therefore your accusation is incorrect. 'Whataboutism' is a common variant of it in politics, though slightly different in that that uses the claim of hypocrisy to redirect criticism ('what about your hypocrisy?!'), whereas Tu quoque uses criticism to refute an accusation. They aren't without criticism themselves. There are occasionally times where hypocrisy is a perfectly valid thing to raise in an argument. Neither are relevant to this discussion as things stand. The defence of the Labour party by quoting research into society's anti-Semitic attitudes, aren't denying anti-Semitism in the party, or saying that it is acceptable. It is simply countering the implications that the issue is severe, inherent, institutional, etc etc to the Labour party that is found throughout the discourse of this 'crisis'. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PompeyVillan Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 The thing with Labour and anti-Semitism is that Labour like to hold themselves to higher standards than their main rivals. They claim to be the party of anti racism so any level of racism in the party is embarrassing hypocrisy. It undermines their message on pretty much everything else. Because if the anti racist party cant be trusted to deal with racists, then what can you trust them with? The Tories are borderline racist, but they don't pretend to be the party of anti racism. In fact they revel in being a little bit racist. UKIP or the Brexit party vet their members to ensure they have problematic attitudes to anyone they consider 'others' before they join. So yeh, if a Tory/UKIP/Brexit party person (they're one and the same) says something a bit racist then it's naughty, but it's not entirely unexpected is it? So it doesn't undermine their message on other issues. They're also quite clever with their problematic views, they wrap up their idealogy in the union jack and 'working class values' to justify it. Plenty of people like that sort of thing. Because of this they can be 'tough' on things. Tough on crime, tough on the deficit, tough on benefit cheats, tough on illegal immigrants and the backstop and Merkel. Or whatever. When this spills over into hateful twitter messages then its easy, blame the individual not the idealogy. Ban them, distance yourself and bobs your uncle continue to be 'tough' on the snowflakes. When a Labour person is racist, then that's it, it shows how ridiculous the whole house is. And it is, it shouldn't be particularly difficult to ensure you don't get a reputation as being anti semetic, should it? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 Tu quoques 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PompeyVillan Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Tu quoques Is that Boris Johnson on the right, the blonde coqoque? Edited August 23, 2019 by PompeyVillan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 1 minute ago, PompeyVillan said: Is that Boris Johnson on the right, the blonde coqoque? Well that would make the orange one..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 To quoques 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted August 23, 2019 Moderator Share Posted August 23, 2019 7 minutes ago, PompeyVillan said: That would make the grey one with the beard...? Bah @Dr_Panglossbeat me to it with added photo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted August 23, 2019 Moderator Share Posted August 23, 2019 I know he's no longer a Labour MP but this seemed the best topic to discuss it Jared o'Mara has apparently been arrested and released on suspicion of fraud He's also supposedly written his letter of resignation as an MP for after the summer recess, which should provide an interesting and rare Lib - Lab by-election (provided no GE is called obv) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 On 23/08/2019 at 19:52, bickster said: I know he's no longer a Labour MP but this seemed the best topic to discuss it Jared o'Mara has apparently been arrested and released on suspicion of fraud He's also supposedly written his letter of resignation as an MP for after the summer recess, which should provide an interesting and rare Lib - Lab by-election (provided no GE is called obv) Campaigning has already started (unofficially) but this will be a likely Lib Dem gain. Labour are deeply unpopular locally in Sheffield at the moment, in addition to their national troubles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted August 24, 2019 Moderator Share Posted August 24, 2019 4 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: Campaigning has already started (unofficially) but this will be a likely Lib Dem gain. Labour are deeply unpopular locally in Sheffield at the moment, in addition to their national troubles. Yep agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted August 27, 2019 Moderator Share Posted August 27, 2019 On 24/08/2019 at 23:49, HanoiVillan said: Campaigning has already started (unofficially) but this will be a likely Lib Dem gain. Labour are deeply unpopular locally in Sheffield at the moment, in addition to their national troubles. Though it has to be said, the Labour candidate is on the side of the Tree Huggers, she resigned as Deputy Leader of the council to support the ”peoples campaign” to change the style of local government from cabinet to committee. This being on the side of the Tree Huggers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted August 27, 2019 Moderator Share Posted August 27, 2019 Chippy Tits has learned from Corbyn’s doublespeak He's right, Liverpool can't and shouldn't be allowed to trademark the word Liverpool but he can't say he going to protect the local traders at the same time as they are the ones selling the blag merchandise on the street that LFC are trying to stop with the trademark. It's just becoming typical of the please all / please no one approach they currently have. It's like the Lib Dems used to be, saying anything but say nothing to get elected 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 jezza has tweeted about bury saying that under a labour government fans would get a say in the running of the club what an absolute lie that is 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted August 28, 2019 Moderator Share Posted August 28, 2019 Just now, villa4europe said: jezza has tweeted about bury saying that under a labour government fans would get a say in the running of the club what an absolute lie that is He can't help himself, he invents policy on the spot without any real thought, it's just populist bollocks like his Ashes congratulatory tweet 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 4 minutes ago, bickster said: He can't help himself, he invents policy on the spot without any real thought, it's just populist bollocks like his Ashes congratulatory tweet It's been policy for several years. Quote Labour Party manifesto: ENGAGEMENT/OWNERSHIP: "Football clubs are an important part of many people’s identity and sense of belonging. They are more than just businesses. But despite their importance in the lives of their members and supporters, too often there are no effective means for fans to have a say in how their clubs are run. Labour will provide the means for supporters to be a genuine part of their clubs. We will introduce legislation to enable accredited supporters trusts to appoint and remove at least two of the directors of a football club and to purchase shares when the club changes hands." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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