blandy Posted July 17, 2019 Moderator Share Posted July 17, 2019 9 hours ago, HanoiVillan said: traditionally both sides have fought hard for control of the party. Back in the 1990's, deselections of left-wing MP's were not considered an outrage by the right of the party. Back in the 2000's, people on the right of the party didn't have any more tolerance for dissent than the left of the party do today, as we might recall if we travel back to 2005: Yeah, you're right. Good post. I think there's a thing like this - Back then the left thought the right has abandoned the old Labour principles, gone too far. Currently the right think the Left has abandoned the chance of ever being government, gone too far with the more unappealing left wing stuff - the support/ambivalence on Russia and Salisbury and many other examples. It's "purity" v "electability", basically. Of course the purity is not pure, it's contaminated, and the electability isn't guaranteed, and there are some proper plonkers on the right, too. As has been said many times in the media, for both the tories and the Labours, "how much longer will those parties hold together?" - they've both gone off to opposite ends of their spectrums. Yet the way to win elections in the UK is to appear moderate, competent, professional and all that. I bet most people, while they might frown at mention of tory Islamophobia, or Labour AS, don't actually follow any argument - they just lodge it as either "distasteful" in their minds or a few will like it and secretly think of it as a plus point, or get kind of defensive about "you can't say anything these days" or "it's all a plot by Israel" or whatever. Most people want Brexit sorted without being shafted, they want the potholes filled in, the trains to run on time, the NHS to work, Schools, housing, police, anti-terror to protect them, no wars, tolerance, The Royal family and food on the shelves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted July 17, 2019 Moderator Share Posted July 17, 2019 This is the perfect description of where Labour’s approach to their problems gets them a game of my dads cock 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 On 16/07/2019 at 16:04, blandy said: They're not though, are they? It's a hard thing to measure if we're taking what I wrote literally. Perhaps 'more enraged' was my addition to the clumsy wording on the page. The point I was weighing in on was about the media and talking points. Quote Maybe not speaking of you or Dave in this reply, but generqally there are plenty of folk who can seperate their utter contempt and distaste for the actions of Israel's government and the IDF from some kind of twisted desire to seek out Jewish people wherever and somehow hold them to account, blame them, pick on them and victimise them as somehow responsible or complicit in the actions of an overseas Gov't and it's violent security forces. Jeebus. I'm thankful for the use of 'maybe' I'll grant you, but I think we're better than insinuations like this to be honest. Is this the Steve Bruce thread? Quote Sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians doesn't have to and shouldn't lead to twisted hatred of Jews generally, See, I knew we really agreed on this stuff. Quote and that seems to have happened to a chunk of Corbynite/far left whoppers who have become more and more emboldened to spew their bile due to the inaction/ineffectivenss of Catweazle and his chums in actually putting a stop to that bile. And none of that, not one bit of it is feeling or saying what those anti-semitic whoppers, idiotic deniers and conspiracy theorists do is remotely as bad as soldiers shooting children and nurses and protestors in Palestine, or the theft of Palestinians land, or the discrimination and victimisation the Palestians suffer at the hands of Israel's authorties. And nor is it as bad as the murders and executions of Palestinians by Hamas, or the missiles, suicide bombings and all the rest of it. and the rest of the thread including all the bits I chose not to comment on in isolation seem to be informing me, as this place often does, of what actually happened and when and by who and what the response was and so on. I don't see why you appear to feel Labour being Anti-Semitic and the media having a rather selective approach to the racism it reports on are mutually exclusive? It's not a one or the other thing to my mind. Quote There are parts of the Labour party that are more cross and angry about people citing and maiking complaints of instances of anti-semitism than they are about the actual anti-semitism. According to these, the people responsible are: "no one - it's all made up, The BBC, Israel, Jews, Rupert Murdoch, Zionists, Disgruntled former employees with a grudge, the tories, Tom Watson, Margaret Hodge, Blairites, The US, whistelblowers...the media..." people not responsible - "anti-semitic labour party members, his magicness the leader of the labour party saint Jeremy or any of his accolytes, let them back in" Politicians shifting blame and responsibility in order to preserve a media profile? It's almost as if they'll do or say anything they are told to, in order to gain or cling on to power eh. Whatever next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 17, 2019 Moderator Share Posted July 17, 2019 30 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said: Jeebus. I'm thankful for the use of 'maybe' I'll grant you, You’re right. I apologise. Clumsy on my part. I didn’t write that bit at all well. I’m sorry.. it doesn’t read like what was in my head. My fault entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 1 minute ago, blandy said: You’re right. I apologise. Clumsy on my part. I didn’t write that bit at all well. I’m sorry.. it doesn’t read like what was in my head. My fault entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted July 17, 2019 Moderator Share Posted July 17, 2019 LOLZ - I'm really not sure how the comment is offensive to Jewish staff. It seems to be proving her right. How long before someone does a Downfall video based on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 10 hours ago, bickster said: LOLZ - I'm really not sure how the comment is offensive to Jewish staff. It seems to be proving her right. How long before someone does a Downfall video based on this? Leveraging the antisemitism issue to remove dissenters, just what you'd expect from Corbyn's 'broad church'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 Putting aside the admitted weakness of 'her comments might be offensive to Jewish people' for a moment, in what world would you expect to compare your boss to Hitler and *not* be fired, and why would you want to work for Hitler anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted July 18, 2019 Moderator Share Posted July 18, 2019 1 minute ago, HanoiVillan said: Putting aside the admitted weakness of 'her comments might be offensive to Jewish people' for a moment, in what world would you expect to compare your boss to Hitler and *not* be fired, and why would you want to work for Hitler anyway? I absolutely think as a member of the cabinet she should have been fired, that bit isn't in doubt. It's all about the justification for that act. The justfication should be, exactly what it really is, the Leader of the Party cannot have people in the Shadow Cabinet who fundamentally think the leader shouldn't be the leader, that's the truth and that is absolutely fine. Trying to reverse weaponise the antisemitism thing innappropriately is THE issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 On 16/07/2019 at 18:45, Xann said: You've taken on board the mantra of the right wing, tax exile, billionaire press barons. Worse still, you're reciting it on a public forum. The bastards will be overjoyed. On 16/07/2019 at 19:06, blandy said: You've taken on board the mantra of the hard left, the Chris Williamson opportunists, the Livingston idiots and the excusers and apologists for anti-semitism. Worse still, you're reciting it on a public forum. The bastards will be overjoyed. Whilst we're looking at what was said - These two may be opposite, they're far from equal when it comes to damage wrought. Love you anyway Pete, honest x 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 1 hour ago, bickster said: I absolutely think as a member of the cabinet she should have been fired, that bit isn't in doubt. It's all about the justification for that act. The justfication should be, exactly what it really is, the Leader of the Party cannot have people in the Shadow Cabinet who fundamentally think the leader shouldn't be the leader, that's the truth and that is absolutely fine. Trying to reverse weaponise the antisemitism thing innappropriately is THE issue Yeah, I think that's fair enough. Her comments were ridiculous rather than offensive. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 18, 2019 Moderator Share Posted July 18, 2019 2 hours ago, HanoiVillan said: why would you want to work for Hitler anyway? Is that the chap who had a reputation for being frightful to Jewish people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 17 hours ago, bickster said: This is the perfect description of where Labour’s approach to their problems gets them a game of my dads cock Monkey see, monkey do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 So, Dianne Hayter was on the radio earlier (R4 roughly 1:30pm). Her side: She claimed nobody has contacted her saying she's been fired, not a phone call, text or e-mail. Nobody from the party has asked her for any comment or clarification or context. When told 'she had refused to apologise', she again said she hasn't refused to apologise, nobody has asked her to, nobody has contacted her in any way. Ironically, she has always been a Corbyn supporter, always voted with him, and was giving a talk about 'bunker mentality' and quoted the film as an example, along with Vietnam briefing and ancient Troy. She said in her speech that regime's with a bunker mentality tended to shoot the messenger rather than accept the message. For which she has now been fired. It's not pretty this, is it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 1 hour ago, chrisp65 said: Ironically, she has always been a Corbyn supporter, I don't think that's correct. She even wrote the book about the right wing takeover of the party, receiving priase as a "moderate" in doing so. Quote This book tells the story of how the moderate right in the Labour Party, trumped by the left for a decade and weakened by defections to the SDP in 1981, fought back organisationally to regain control of the party Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 Just now, peterms said: I don't think that's correct. She even wrote the book about the right wing takeover of the party, receiving priase as a "moderate" in doing so. apologies, that was my para phrase of something closer to 'always done as I've been told since Corbyn picked me for the shadow cabinet' as opposed to a natural enemy of Corbyn at any price I still don't know if that's actually true, as I've never previously heard of her, not surprising really if she was Labour's Brexit Secretary. Either way, it's interesting that in these times, within the Labour Party, anyone would still be thinking to bring up Hitler in any context. It's like the learning curve has flat lined. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 This is correct. The idea that she could say something like that and be surprised that someone wouldn't ring her to check if she had somehow transposed some words and might wish to correct it, or had a senior moment and wanted to dissociate herself from her comments made hours earlier, is laughable. Take some responsibility, at least. Choose an action and accept the consequences, without this pitiful appeal for sympathy. Has anyone said "Hayter gonna hayt", btw? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, chrisp65 said: I still don't know if that's actually true, as I've never previously heard of her, not surprising really if she was Labour's Brexit Secretary. Shadow Brexit Minister. Labour's Kwasi Kwarteng or James Cleverley as Keir Starmer is their Steve Barclay. I should really get out more. Edited July 18, 2019 by ml1dch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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